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  1. #46
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    It is a monument to mismanagement to see all the talent that was on the WCW/NWA side of the fence during that era as compared to the WWF and then realize that the WWF won the war. The WWF had the louder microphone but talent for talent WCW was stacked to the rim.
    I think that in large part shows the value of having a good business man at the helm of your company.

    You can have the best talent and even the best bookers, but if you're running your company into the ground at best you'll be lucky to simply survive.

    Say what you want about Vince, but he's a good business man that knows how to market his brand. WCW, ECW, and TnA all failed in that capacity even though they at times arguably had better talent or booking or both. The just that happens behind the scenes can be just as important as what we see in the ring. And no one in the history of the business has ever done that as well as Vince (and honestly no one likely ever will).

    WWE was such a well run well oiled machine. The camera work, the lightining, the music, etc... it just seemed like a bigger better run promotion even when WCW had more money. If you listen to podcasts from guys like Bischoff or Shivonee or whatever, it seemed like their people were constantly tripping over each other backstage on a nightly basis. Pretty much everyone seems to say that going from WWE to WCW was like night and day, at least as far as the organiation was concerned. And obviously that applies even moreso to ECW and TnA, who didn't have the budget unlike WCW did in its later years.

  2. #47
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the talemt and the characters in the WWE in the attitude era was absolutely amazing.

    However, I think the actual wrestling on tv was actually surprisingly underwhelming. I think today the pure in-ring product is actually better.
    They have better in ring talent but no real stories to propel things. A fact Russo himself bragged up how great Joe , Styles and Bryan was in ring. But the actual stories aren't there anymore. Raven himself backed this up as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    It is a monument to mismanagement to see all the talent that was on the WCW/NWA side of the fence during that era as compared to the WWF and then realize that the WWF won the war. The WWF had the louder microphone but talent for talent WCW was stacked to the rim.
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think that in large part shows the value of having a good business man at the helm of your company.

    You can have the best talent and even the best bookers, but if you're running your company into the ground at best you'll be lucky to simply survive.

    Say what you want about Vince, but he's a good business man that knows how to market his brand. WCW, ECW, and TnA all failed in that capacity even though they at times arguably had better talent or booking or both. The just that happens behind the scenes can be just as important as what we see in the ring. And no one in the history of the business has ever done that as well as Vince (and honestly no one likely ever will).

    WWE was such a well run well oiled machine. The camera work, the lightining, the music, etc... it just seemed like a bigger better run promotion even when WCW had more money. If you listen to podcasts from guys like Bischoff or Shivonee or whatever, it seemed like their people were constantly tripping over each other backstage on a nightly basis. Pretty much everyone seems to say that going from WWE to WCW was like night and day, at least as far as the organiation was concerned. And obviously that applies even moreso to ECW and TnA, who didn't have the budget unlike WCW did in its later years.
    Well as we saw RAW didn't have the budget or anything close to WCW's for like 2+ years. If you go back on WWE Network watch a RAW from 1996 compared to a Nitro broadcast. The lighting , camera work wasn't there since WWF really didn't have the budget to compete. Hell at one time the WWF was airing one show I reviewed last year from watching a RAW where they had the audio suddenly cut out. This happened at times through the broadcast.

    Vince had to convince USA Network to give them money to do better production and go live to combat Nitro. Because USA Network has grew tired of seeing RAW get beaten that they were gonna move the show to Thursdays. Once Vince got better production he was able to take the guys he had who were building up like Steve Austin , Rock , Mankind etc and push them on TV very well.

    Booking of course plays a part for sure. And Bischoff screwed up with his plan to keep guys at certain level. And he'd rarely want to elevate talent up beyond DDP and Goldberg in the years of Nitro. Raven was wanting to work against Piper (who was for it) Bischoff nixed that as well as pushing Benoit , Hart etc.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  3. #48
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Speaking of Bischoff , on the 83 weeks Podcast he was asked about the firing of Honkytonk Man A fact the interviewer brought up what Meltzer reported and what Honky had claimed.






    - Before this its joked that WCW executives had been shocked Starrcade 1994 sold out and they actually snapped pictures of the sell out sign before the card. But behind the scenes Honky had either quit or was fired.

    - Bischoff contends he was fired. Because as he said this guy thought he was literally Elvis and walked up as they were inside near the production truck. He was supposed to put over Johnny B. Badd at Starrcade as that was the program. Honky wanted a contract to work and its reported he was on a $1,000 a night deal to show up and be paid to either cut a promo or wrestle ala Jim Duggen at this time.


    - Well Bischoff was told he wouldn't work unless he got a contract and as he claims he saw this as some old school type situation. If he backed down or told Honky they'd work it out the "boys" who were around would see that they could back him into a corner and do this. Bischoff told him he was fired then and knew he made the right choice. And this was a guy who was working a bit role anyhow and not an important one so he wasn't gonna take it.


    - The interviewer brings up the whole discussion that Honky claims that Hogan never stepped in to talk to Bischoff. But as Bischoff joked , wasn't all of Hogan's friends supposed to get huge pushes and contracts then ? He did admit that the only one who did seemingly was Brutus who worked against Hogan in a main event run there as well as kept around.





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9axII_aYoCI
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    i think it's time the indy promotions that rose post ECW/WCW collapse should be considered "old school". my son's going to be 20 this year and he grew up with WWE but also grew up watching various indy promotions at live shows and via VHS/DVD and later on internet.

    2002-2010 was a really special time with promotions like CZW,XPW, ECWA super 8 tourneys, IWA mid-south, RoH, PWG, JAPW, chikara, etc that i think will be remembered far more fondly in the future.

    lets hear it for the spot monkeys, garbage wrestlers, & vanilla midgets!!

  5. #50
    Mighty Member Darkseid Is's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the talemt and the characters in the WWE in the attitude era was absolutely amazing.

    However, I think the actual wrestling on tv was actually surprisingly underwhelming. I think today the pure in-ring product is actually better.
    The pure in-ring product today seems to me to be two excellent athletes having a great match. That's fine. And there are great matches.

    Professional wrestling isn't about great athletes having a great match. Sorry to break it to everyone. Professional wrestling is a combination of elements. Part of that is two excellent athletes having a great match. The most important part is that we care about these wrestlers. Like comics, like movies, there has to be an emotional connection to the characters for that to matter.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    CZW used to put on a lot of shitty shows, but their Best of the Best cruiserweight/jr heavy tournament was one to look forward to every year. one of my favorites was BotB 4 in 2004. here's the line up

    homicide
    jack evans
    chris cash
    b boy
    roderick strong
    jimmy rave
    alex shelley
    ruckus
    bobby quance
    petey williams
    sonjay dutt
    nate webb


    long show with the including the non-tourney matches but so much fun.

  7. #52
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkseid Is View Post
    The pure in-ring product today seems to me to be two excellent athletes having a great match. That's fine. And there are great matches.

    Professional wrestling isn't about great athletes having a great match. Sorry to break it to everyone. Professional wrestling is a combination of elements. Part of that is two excellent athletes having a great match. The most important part is that we care about these wrestlers. Like comics, like movies, there has to be an emotional connection to the characters for that to matter.
    I don't disagree that sucessful pro-wrestling doesn't require a combination of elements. You need plenty of sports entertainment to make wrestling work with the mainstream WWE audience. I'm just saying for my own personal taste, I think rather than finding a balance Russo perhaps went too far to an extreme.

    I think Lucha Underground was an excellent example of finding a balance, where the in-ring action and the storyline skits and angles are able to find a seemless middle ground. You need both but it's nice when you can have both without one hurting the other too much.

  8. #53
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Stevie Ray is a fun shoot guy and has a radio podcast with a friend where he's addressed many things. Stevie sadly never has gotten a chance in WWE but well he discussed a funny situation where Randy Savage nearly went berserk backstage over anger at bookers and Ric Flair.


    - Stevie brings up it was around 1994 and at the time Harlem Heat was really not doing much then. They were the new team on roster and it was like people backstage kept trying to trip them up with things and they kept doing well. Anyhow backstage before a tag match against Sting & Randy Savage ; Mike Graham walked up and gave a mile long finish for a match. Which had everyone do a WTF and then wanted the Harlem Heat to no sell Savage's finisher.


    - This then led to Savage learning that the bookers (and possibly Flair) wanting to kill his finisher as he went off backstage. The maddest Stevie and Booker had ever seen. Sting himself told guys he had nothing to do with this and they knew he didn't. Both him and Booker decided against doing this finish and told Savage to relax that they weren't gonna kill his finish at all. That they would work around that.

    Graham wasn't blamed either as he was just delivering what he was told to tell them.


    - So they went out , did everything Graham laid out as a finish ...except that as they had Stevie stop a 3 count and the match ended in a DQ. Without no selling Savage's finisher and kicking out. Savage was happy and backstage as they went back guys were giving them the thumbs up sign and more. Even Graham walked by and told em it was a solid match. That he didn't seem to remember what he had told them. Then Hogan came by and told Bischoff , how the Harlem Heat was their best tag team in the company right now. After that they started to get a big push and no one remembered this.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  9. #54
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Another fun Stevie Ray interview and this is from last year. The time Steven Regal legit shoot on Bill Goldberg and got fired.





    - Stevie joked he did shoot out there on Goldberg with some legit shots and the company wasn't happy with this match. Because as the co-host brought up Goldberg was running through guys in a couple minutes a match basically before this.


    - Anyhow as Stevie brings up Regal is one of those classic Blackpool England guys who will fight you and all. Everyone knew backstage what he planned to do in that Goldberg match and it didn't shock them. He was fired after this for making Goldberg look bad.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  10. #55
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    Another fun Stevie Ray interview and this is from last year. The time Steven Regal legit shoot on Bill Goldberg and got fired.





    - Stevie joked he did shoot out there on Goldberg with some legit shots and the company wasn't happy with this match. Because as the co-host brought up Goldberg was running through guys in a couple minutes a match basically before this.


    - Anyhow as Stevie brings up Regal is one of those classic Blackpool England guys who will fight you and all. Everyone knew backstage what he planned to do in that Goldberg match and it didn't shock them. He was fired after this for making Goldberg look bad.
    I don't know how anyone can say Regal made Goldberg look bad. To me, this was the first Goldberg match I ever say that didn't flat out suck. He actually held his own against Regal in a wrestling match.

  11. #56
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    So listening to a shoot from Bubba Ray about his WWE return and run for a year with D-Von we learned some things. And here is a clip of Bubba's character he wanted to do in WWE so badly.





    - Bubba claims that him and D-Von as they were getting ready to leave Impact was debating on going back to WWE . He heard that the company was interested. So he made the call which had Vince meet with them both. He detailed that if they came in for a year he would do the following things. Pay them the best pay for a year , let them travel the best possible way and give them a really easy schedule to work. But Vince told them they couldn't push the Dudley's anymore. That he wanted them to help get the Uso's and others over. To put those guys over.


    - Bubba didn't mind it because he knew they were the future guys in business and hell back when Dudley's 1st came into the WWF back in 1999 they weren't supposed to get over or pushed either. Its just how the fans took to them against Hardy's and Edge/Christian. But he felt after the year that things didn't go so well as you can actually get guys over and keep a team over as well. So by the end of the year he was wanting out after contracts expired.


    - Before he left he met with Vince and pitched ideas. He wanted to be Bully Ray again. He felt that the Bully character turned loose on WWE TV would be great. But Vince told him , we can't do that. I have this whole "Be a Star" program and the press will get me if I have a character named Bully. So Bubba tried to do this idea ...how about we let Bully have a run being that for a year and we get the right face , right young guy to humble him and teach him how being a Bully is wrong and we can sell that to the Be A Star program. Vince claimed the press would spend a year roasting him so no go.

    Bubba came back and decided to use a Nascar nickname to essentially be Bully Ray but instead was gonna call himself the "Intimidator" and be the Bully character. Vince was sold on this but then comically disagreed on how to launch it. Bubba felt he needed to get juice for the character and have him turn on D-Von. The last night they worked on Smackdown , Vince agreed to it shaking hands. Saying the angle was good to go and the heel turn would happen on RAW.


    - 2 days before RAW however Vince called and told him the feud was off. That the company just didn't see money in a Bubba/D-Von program . He liked the Bully character basically but didn't like the idea to get the character there was a short program with D-Von 1st. They parted on good terms and he told Bubba once he retired he always had a producers job waiting on him with WWE. Bubba says he can't talk negative about Vince or WWE .



    - Jericho (possibly him) claims he thought the whole excuse was silly. How long do feuds last now in WWE ? Bubba thinks a possible reason he rejected this was because after this program what does he do with D-Von ? Last time he split the Dudley's ; D-Von floundered. That it didn't work. They bring up age wise as well is a strike. Because Vince is hesistant to put the machine behind guys in their 40's.

    The co-host brings up that Vince has kinda lost out on this thinking as well. Because Savage he gave up on at 42/43 went on to make WCW millions of dollars as did Hogan.


    - Bubba claims as he decided to bring it up to Vince about ending the Dudley's he was stunned as Vince told him..."I know all about Bully Ray..." As he was shocked Vince has watched Impact and knew the character. Bubba claims he could have lost every match as Bully yet it wouldn't make the character be hurt as he's just a bully. Who picks on smaller guys , nerds etc .



    -

    -


    Its kinda stupid a Be A Star program killed what could be a great heel character.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  12. #57
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    With the news Eric Bischoff is now over the Smackdown brand and will be running it behind the scenes , Bischoff told him and his wife will be moving to be close to Stamford so he can hands on with the company. He also said he will continue his 83 Weeks podcast still.

    Before this in a clip Bischoff and his co-host discussed the now famous 1999 appearance of Sable on Nitro.





    - Bischoff claims that she knew Kevin Nash and its likely how she decided to attend. But no one expected it and he had to scramble and talk to Turner lawyers on how to handle this.

    - He was told to not say her name of Sable or Rena Mero. Also to not mention the WWF as he asked about what he could say possibly here. As he brought up Playboy as a nice inside dig there. Also later he said in a spot a blond woman was driving a hummer that could have hit Sid in a spot. Basically hinting it was Mero.

    - The WWF was not at all happy and threatened a lawsuit as Turner's fired back that Rena Mero was not under WCW contract , had not be in negotiations for one and she attended the show on her own.

    - Bischoff claims now 20+ years later he would have likely told Mero to buy her own ticket (which he believes she did) and that way it can show WCW was not responsible for her showing up there.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  13. #58
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    I've not watched much Japanese Wrestling but this sad story basically echoes a man who ran a company and sadly was forced back into becoming the Champion to keep the company around in his late 40's.

    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  14. #59
    Fighting Injustice on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    With the WWE now going back to a TV-14 rating and ending the PG era after a decade , in an interview with Curt Hawkins he discussed when it began.

    Hawkins claimed there was a huge meeting about it before Great American Bash and Vince laid it down. The only new person confused by this was Michael Tarver who they just pulled from NXT.

    Tarver is the only one to raise his hand and says he has a question. "Thats good Shelton if you have a question."

    Everyone burst out laughing as Vince had no clue. Then later backstage everyone is watching Cena/JBL and those guys are using cars and more. It was a pretty violent match.

    Mark Henry goes "Hold on when is murder PG ?"

    No one knew how far they could go with this new system.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

  15. #60
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    Jim Cornette discussed Robert Gibson's older brother Ricky Gibson today. Ricky is not as well known but was a hell of a worker. He was 6'1 , 220+ pounds and could move even better in ring than Ricky Morton. He was Robert's 1st tag team partner. The guy was a legit bumping machine in ring. But sadly Ricky was not a good promo cutter and by the mid/late 1980's his style of work left him having to use a cane at times. Due to a bad back and knee issues.






    Cornette decided that since they would be running around Memphis where Gibson was known in that territory they would use him for shows. So he would be more of a manager type with supporting the Rock n Roll Express against the Heavenly Bodies and others. So he detailed a funny story how some girls still believed it was all real.


    - There was a set of women who would go to the motels where the "Face" workers hung out and another set where the "Heels" were at. As Cornette puts it they rarely turned and if they tried to be double agents they would get found out pretty quick.

    - Ricky Gibson was playing off an injury angle where he used a hot towel to grind his face some and then bruised up his eye the hard way . To make it look like the heels had beaten him up. So he was staying in the motel as the SMW show ran and his brother was jumped by the bad guys.

    - There was 4-5 girls with Ricky in his motel as he saw this as he yelled..."Those motherf--kers.." and jumped up storming out to parking lot. The girls were yelling for him to stop and not go. He goes to his car , grabs a tire wrench and drives out of there pissed swearing !

    - The girls watching this saw him arrive as the show was airing on TV as he pulled in and took after them. One of them was wearing an army type helmet and as Gibson brought the wrench down to hit , he raised it up from his head in luck. The wrench punched a hole deep in it and could have killed him if it made contact !


    - But that was how some still believed it was real even then. lol
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.

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