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  1. #241
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Well, I disagree that core traits have been thrown aside, or that the creators are untalented or lazy. I quite like the books right now, for the most part.

    and they have not killed business.

    Your graph doesn’t factor in overships and the fact that they are producing much more comics to give the appearance of growth and stability in the industry. If you compare sales of individual titles to a decade ago and average it then it isn’t even close and I’d also wager that they’d be far worse if every issue was made returnable and digital sales were made public. They should do that if they are so confident with the product they are producing. This current model isn’t a problem for the companies that are subsidiaries of larger companies but it is killing comic stores.
    Last edited by KurtW95; 10-19-2019 at 06:20 PM.
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  2. #242
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    one, if you look there, that is dollars, not units, so overships won't show up there. But even if it was units, overships are a drop in the bucket to the overall number of issues shipped, sites like Bleeding Cool like to make a big stink about them but it's not that big a deal. And why on earth would releasing digital sales make that WORSE? Digital sales began in 2009, though didn't really pick up steam until 2011, when DC started day and date digital releases. (which shop owners complained about a lot) So, no matter how many or few issues they are selling digitally, it's all still additive and if added to those figures only makes the graph from 2009 onward go up. It is a purely additive thing, no matter how few issues it may be, it takes away absolutely NOTHING from what is shown there. I mean, additive to Marvel's bottom line, it does presumably take some readers away from shops, but not to a significant degree looking at the graph. the publishers are in the business of selling comics, where/how is irrelevant, their job is not to keep comic shops open, any more than music labels are there to keep record stores open.
    Last edited by Raye; 10-19-2019 at 06:26 PM.

  3. #243
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Yes for some, no for others. For instance, it seems pretty unnecessary for Iron Man. With or without it, he is a target in and out of the armor. On the other hand, Captain America really should have one.

  4. #244
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Like I just said, look and compare the sales and averages from today with a decade ago and digital sales are not that significant and certainly not enough to prop up comics that are in the cancellation zone. Lots of comics have also risen in price since then so you could have the unit number go down and the dollars go up.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  5. #245
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    Yes for some, no for others. For instance, it seems pretty unnecessary for Iron Man. With or without it, he is a target in and out of the armor. On the other hand, Captain America really should have one.
    It still makes you that much more of a target if you don’t have a secret identity. Iron Man has far more powerful enemies than Tony Stark does.
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  6. #246
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    What do you mean by make sense, specifically?
    Well, take Captain America. Captain America was a soldier and a propaganda icon. It just doesn't make sense to me that his secret identity wasn't publicly known before he came out of the ice; and even then, Steve just doesn't strike me as the type to keep such major information from the people around him. He's not ashamed of who he is, and he came back to a world that had moved on; he doesn't have an Aunt May to worry about. And, he was a soldier, not a spy. Soldiers don't go around pretending they aren't in the army, pretending they don't have rank. Giving a character who is premised on a military origin a secret identity, that doesn't fit well in my eyes. Same goes for Captain Marvel. Whereas with Black Widow, a secret identity would make sense, because her premise is that she's a spy. The whole thing with spies is that people aren't supposed to know who they really are.

    Iron Man; the whole, "Iron Man is Tony Stark's bodyguard thing", that doesn't make any sense as a ploy to take attention off of Tony. It doesn't remove Tony or people he cares about from connection with Iron Man. And that's all besides the fact that as a person that comes from a highly privileged background, there are just less inherent risks with his identity being public. I mean, he's already a public figure. Losing the secret identity just does not upend his life like it would for Peter Parker.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Lots of ways to move forward with a character that doesnít force the core traits of said character or the medium to be thrown away. We had that until very recently when the genre has been overrun with untalented and lazy creators who have killed business.
    You have an overly expansive view of what the core traits of these characters, and certainly the medium, are. And to translate that into thinking that the current generation of creators are untalented and lazy is patently absurd. And if you think they're throwing away the core traits of the medium of comics, then I'd question if you even know what the word means.

  7. #247
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Some of today’s creators are good but it’s not much. Even what conditioners as a good comic today is mediocre if you compare it to any product from previous decades or so.
    Last edited by KurtW95; 10-19-2019 at 08:43 PM.
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  8. #248
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    The very first Marvel hero (well antihero) Namor didn't have a secret identity. The Fantastic Four have never had a secret identity. This concept was nowhere near as important to Marvel as it was to DC (and even they eventually realized not everyone needed a secret identity)

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Your graph doesnít factor in overships and the fact that they are producing much more comics to give the appearance of growth and stability in the industry. If you compare sales of individual titles to a decade ago and average it then it isnít even close and Iíd also wager that theyíd be far worse if every issue was made returnable and digital sales were made public. They should do that if they are so confident with the product they are producing. This current model isnít a problem for the companies that are subsidiaries of larger companies but it is killing comic stores.
    a) Overships are significantly insignificant these days. Bleeding Cool not only broke the original stories about how overships affected statistics, but also noting how this has really dropped away in recent years. Anyone talking about overships in stats in recent years is way behind what's happening in the industry. b) these stats don't count overships anyway. c) the point of overships were never to bump stats, but to encourage sampling and availability d) there is far more widespread returnability now than there used to be.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    one, if you look there, that is dollars, not units, so overships won't show up there. But even if it was units, overships are a drop in the bucket to the overall number of issues shipped, sites like Bleeding Cool like to make a big stink about them but it's not that big a deal. And why on earth would releasing digital sales make that WORSE? Digital sales began in 2009, though didn't really pick up steam until 2011, when DC started day and date digital releases. (which shop owners complained about a lot) So, no matter how many or few issues they are selling digitally, it's all still additive and if added to those figures only makes the graph from 2009 onward go up. It is a purely additive thing, no matter how few issues it may be, it takes away absolutely NOTHING from what is shown there. I mean, additive to Marvel's bottom line, it does presumably take some readers away from shops, but not to a significant degree looking at the graph. the publishers are in the business of selling comics, where/how is irrelevant, their job is not to keep comic shops open, any more than music labels are there to keep record stores open.
    No. BC brought thus up years and years ago when it was a statistical issue, but it hasn't been one for ages.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Some of today’s creators are good but it’s not much. Even what conditioners as a good comic today is mediocre if you compare it to any product from previous decades or so.
    No. Comics like Ewing's Immortal Hulk or Zdarsky's Daredevil or Cates' Venom or Aaron's Thor or Spencer's ASM and other books heralded for their quality today would not be mediocre in earlier decades. They'd still be great comics (and before anyone pipes in to say "Well, I don't like _______ !" or "____________ is overrated!", let's just agree that no book is universally loved but that, by critical consensus, we can agree that certain books are more lauded than others).

    The truth is, the vast majority of comics from earlier decades were mediocre with the occasional bright spots. Books like Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor and Byrne's FF stood out like they did because so few comics of that time were operating on that level. Nostalgia lends these earlier times a glow but the truth is they were just like any other time - some stand-out, brilliant work, some solid, competent books, and a lot of stuff that's ok at best and maybe even kind of crummy.

    I was just going through a stack of old Amazing Heroes issues from the '80s and it's amusing to be reminded of how fans and the comic book press were busy cynically pissing on just about everything back then, even as today most fans look back on that as a Golden Time. Even before the internet, the comic book community was prone to ceaseless bitching!

    As for secret identities, the only character I kind of miss it with is Cap. I liked it when Steve had a civilian life and a whole supporting cast to go with it. But it's not so essential to who he is to maintain that.

  12. #252

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    i hope for more secret IDs in the near future.

  13. #253
    Fantastic Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    I miss secret IDs.
    It was interesting to see characters balance two lives, so to speak.
    Not to mention, it let them interact w. normal ppl, develop supporting casts...
    Heroes nowadays (for the most part) are like a cross between soldiers and reality TV stars. They don’t do anything outside hero-ing, they pretty much just associate w. only themselves. They work sleep eat together, they date each other, they dont have normal relationships.

  14. #254
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    I miss secret IDs.
    It was interesting to see characters balance two lives, so to speak.
    Not to mention, it let them interact w. normal ppl, develop supporting casts...
    Heroes nowadays (for the most part) are like a cross between soldiers and reality TV stars. They donít do anything outside hero-ing, they pretty much just associate w. only themselves. They work sleep eat together, they date each other, they dont have normal relationships.
    I would agree with that as well, and I've opined in the past in this forum about how the Marvel superhero community's increasing disconnection from the people they supposedly protect has played a considerable role in the public's alienation from them due to the heroes seemingly no longer understanding (and thus disregarding) how normal people feel and fear. That was how we got stuck with Secret Empire, and if they're not careful, some other charismatic demagogue could turn the public against them again. As said in the DC Rebirth Supergirl comic, secret identities are tools for heroes to move and live among those they protect and develop empathy for them and their struggles.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #255
    Spectacular Member Stick Figure's Avatar
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    I’ve never understood secret identities. I just think most wouldn’t work. I like when writers approach comics as what would happen if this was real. One, with modern tech, no one could keep a secret for long. Two, if you’re battling villains all day,how much energy could you put toward a second career and identity? Maintaining a civilian career would be brutal. If you choose to be a super hero, you’re probably not going to have a serious career or a robust social life. You’ll have a small circle that knows what you do but that’s about it.
    I’ve never seen a story involving a secret identity where the ID added much to the character. Just a relic of a simpler time to me. Then again, I’m not into the flamboyant costumes much.
    Last edited by Stick Figure; 10-20-2019 at 08:05 PM.

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