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  1. #106
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    This is almost certainly misogynistic propaganda. Women all over history have managed to use the bow just fine, plus too many of them would have died from infections if they really did that.
    Exactly. Just as Barbara Ann said, it's all BS.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Exactly. Just as Barbara Ann said, it's all BS.
    I agree that the legends of the Amazons reflect the misogyny of the culture in which those legends originated. I guess I thought Azz's idea was to imagine that the Amazon culture itself reflected that misogyny, as a reaction against it, and then see how Diana would deal with that; and this seemed like an interesting premise. I hoped for a little more emphasis on how Diana would lead the Amazons in reforming themselves, but I did like the touches of reform that we got in the last few months.

    One of the things I liked most about Azzarello's run was its quirkiness--the ways it surprised me and kept me guessing and even looking up background, from the model for Milan to the tundra where Diana went to see Artemis. I got a lot out of it which I didn't expect from a Wonder Woman comic, or any superhero comic--which I guess made it OK for me that it didn't necessarily provide everything one would usually expect from such a comic. To me, Rucka's run, while it was more "correct" in terms of meeting fans' expectations, was, by the same token, relatively predictable and, as others have said, bland. (I do think it was a competent superhero comic, and therefore much better than Finch's run, which, to me, just seemed amateurishly written.)

    I'm looking forward to the G. Willow Wilson run; I'm hoping it will have some of the quirkiness of the Azz run, while being more recognizably feminist (and superheroic, too.)
    Last edited by Silvanus; 08-14-2018 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Changed "misogyny of the times" to "misogyny of the culture," because kjn, below, has a point.

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I agree that the legends of the Amazons reflect the misogyny of the times in which those legends originated. I guess I thought Azz's idea was to imagine that the Amazon culture itself reflected that misogyny, as a reaction against it, and then see how Diana would deal with that; and this seemed like an interesting premise. I hoped for a little more emphasis on how Diana would lead the Amazons in reforming themselves, but I did like the touches of reform that we got in the last few months.
    Though here you're doing a misconception: just because the Greeks (or the Romans) were extremely misogynistic, doesn't mean the cultures around them were. We have a tendency to see history and progress linearly, but things like women's position in society or social mobility tends to move up and down and sideways and in surprising twists once you start to look at the details. From what we know about the Scythians (who might have been the model for the original Amazon legends), they had women leaders and warriors, but we don't have much in way of sources except archeological ones and the Greeks, but that's about it.

    Also, I'd argue that if this was Azzarello's intent, he failed at it. If he were to go that way, he needed to delve much deeper into Amazon culture than he did and why it became the way it did—show real discussions among them on how they are to relate towards individual men and to Man's World. All we get on page is a rather myopic and prejudiced society with lots of people who bullied Diana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I'm looking forward to the G. Willow Wilson run; I'm hoping it will have some of the quirkiness of the Azz run, while being more recognizably feminist (and superheroic, too.)
    Yeah. While Ms Marvel wasn't really my thing, my wife really liked it, and I think Wilson's background make her eminently suited to write about culture displacement. And Rucka, Orlando, and Tynion seems to give a solid basis for Diana's character that Wilson hopefully can evolve.
    Last edited by kjn; 08-14-2018 at 01:22 PM.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Though here you're doing a misconception: just because the Greeks (or the Romans) were extremely misogynistic, doesn't mean the cultures around them were. We have a tendency to see history and progress linearly, but things like women's position in society or social mobility tends to move up and down and sideways and in surprising twists once you start to look at the details. From what we know about the Scythians (who might have been the model for the original Amazon legends), they had women leaders and warriors, but we don't have much in way of sources except archeological ones and the Greeks, but that's about it.
    Thanks, and I see your point; I shouldn't have said "the misogyny of the time," but "the misogyny of the culture." Edited!

    But, while I get that the Scythians seem to have been more gender-equitable than either the Greeks or the monstrous Amazons that the Greeks imagined, I don't think a writer has any obligation to accurately depict these possibly "real" Amazons (who, as you suggest, are almost unknowable anyway). To me, Azzarello started an interesting thought experiment by fictionally treating the Greek-authored Amazon legends, misogynistic as those legends were, as "real," and then imagining how Wonder Woman would react if she found those stereotyped Amazons in her family tree. I understand why some readers prefer to see that kind of thought experiment confined to Elseworlds, but personally, I thought it was more exciting to try it in continuity.

    Also, I'd argue that if this was Azzarello's intent, he failed at it. If he were to go that way, he needed to delve much deeper into Amazon culture than he did and why it became the way it did—show real discussions among them on how they are to relate towards individual men and to Man's World. All we get on page is a rather myopic and prejudiced society with lots of people who bullied Diana.
    Though I enjoyed Azz's way of leaving a lot to the reader's imagination, I won't deny that I would have liked to see him delve into the Amazons backstory more (and show us more of their present-day path of reform under Wonder Woman's influence). It should have been a nine-year run, really.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 08-14-2018 at 03:07 PM.

  5. #110
    Incredible Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    This is almost certainly misogynistic propaganda. Women all over history have managed to use the bow just fine, plus too many of them would have died from infections if they really did that.
    I hope so, it's such a extreme act... :/ I didn't read any history books about amazons but there were a group of women in Y The Last Man comics and they were called amazons and they were cutting one of their boobs, so i thought the real amazons also cut one of their boobs since wanna bes in Y The Last Man practiced that as a rituel to be amazons. But that's my only source of information about the practice and my assumptions and some people say original amazons really did that. I have never read any acilamed history book from a respected historian about amazons.
    Last edited by Gurz; 08-15-2018 at 12:47 PM.

  6. #111
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    I will always prefer azzarello mostly down to the world building, support cast and good stories. Sure I didn't enjoy the rapey amazons and he was a tad arrogant at the beginning but he didn't do a story which pisses on all the previous canon and laughs during interviews when he speaks about it. Plus I never rated Rucka's villains due to the dull designs and all of their motivations which are ultimately defined by a man (a deity mind) due to all their links to his character that is a poor woman's lex luthor.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    I will always prefer azzarello mostly down to the world building, support cast and good stories. Sure I didn't enjoy the rapey amazons and he was a tad arrogant at the beginning but he didn't do a story which pisses on all the previous canon and laughs during interviews when he speaks about it. Plus I never rated Rucka's villains due to the dull designs and all of their motivations which are ultimately defined by a man (a deity mind) due to all their links to his character that is a poor woman's lex luthor.
    1) that is exactly what Azzarello did.

    2) How is having your villains linked to a female villain mean their motivations are defined by a man?

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    I will always prefer azzarello mostly down to the world building, support cast and good stories. Sure I didn't enjoy the rapey amazons and he was a tad arrogant at the beginning but he didn't do a story which pisses on all the previous canon and laughs during interviews when he speaks about it. Plus I never rated Rucka's villains due to the dull designs and all of their motivations which are ultimately defined by a man (a deity mind) due to all their links to his character that is a poor woman's lex luthor.
    1) that is exactly what Azzarello did.

    2) How is having your villains linked to a female villain mean their motivations are defined by a man?

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    1) that is exactly what Azzarello did.

    2) How is having your villains linked to a female villain mean their motivations are defined by a man?
    Azarello's villains where motivated by their own desires for power or whimsy(well except first born), Ruckas were all manipulated or bought by Veronica cale who was being blackmailed by by ares's sons. Ultimately the female villains were never villainous for their own reasons.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    Azarello's villains where motivated by their own desires for power or whimsy(well except first born), Ruckas were all manipulated or bought by Veronica cale who was being blackmailed by by ares's sons. Ultimately the female villains were never villainous for their own reasons.
    Cassandra was just a lackey for the First Born, Artemis was just doing what her brother asked of her and Hera was just a woman scorned taking out her anger on her husband's rape victims. Rucka's villains were as defined by men as Azzarello's were. Less actually since Circe and Poison were mercenaries meaning their motivation was greed. They'd have worked for anyone as long as they got something out of it. That's their reason.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    Azarello's villains where motivated by their own desires for power or whimsy(well except first born), Ruckas were all manipulated or bought by Veronica cale who was being blackmailed by by ares's sons. Ultimately the female villains were never villainous for their own reasons.
    Can you give an example of a reason that would qualify?

    And it's not as if Cale stopped being a villain once the Ares twins weren't a threat to her anymore.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Cassandra was just a lackey for the First Born, Artemis was just doing what her brother asked of her and Hera was just a woman scorned taking out her anger on her husband's rape victims. Rucka's villains were as defined by men as Azzarello's were. Less actually since Circe and Poison were mercenaries meaning their motivation was greed. They'd have worked for anyone as long as they got something out of it. That's their reason.
    Apollo wanted the throne and strife did her own thing as well as wonder womans half siblings acting on survival while poison (and let's admit at the uninspired design) was bought by cales money and don't even get me started on doctor cyber.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Can you give an example of a reason that would qualify?

    And it's not as if Cale stopped being a villain once the Ares twins weren't a threat to her anymore.
    Doctor cyber was turned from personal secretary to personal AI, Doctor poison turned into cales gun for hire and cheetah manipulated to relapse back into a monster by veronica cale to be used against wonder woman and I guess about cale being a villain after but she still has the origin that she did not get her way after being blackmailed for so long. That's just my opinion mind.

  14. #119
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    Azarello's villains where motivated by their own desires for power or whimsy(well except first born), Ruckas were all manipulated or bought by Veronica cale who was being blackmailed by by ares's sons. Ultimately the female villains were never villainous for their own reasons.
    You're forgetting Hera, who was motivated entirely by her husband's actions. Artemis also didn't seem to have much motivation beyond helping Apollo accomplish his goals, and avenging him later.

    Cassandra's goal was...what exactly?

    In Rucka's run, Circe was a free agent and both Cale and Cyber were hardly subservient to men when they recruited her to take out the twins. Cale didn't stop being a villain once Deimos and Phobos were captured, nor has she shown signs of giving up her grudge against Wonder Woman even when the story was over and the twins were out of her hair. Dr. Cyber and Cheetah struck out on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    Doctor cyber was turned from personal secretary to personal AI,
    She was never a secretary, she was a fellow scientist and friend, and probably co-founder of the company if she's anything like Leslie Anderson. And she ditched Cale at the end of the run to strike out on her own, which Robinson decided to resolve very quickly for some annoying reason.


    Quote Originally Posted by ssupes View Post
    cheetah manipulated to relapse back into a monster by veronica cale to be used against wonder woman and I guess about cale being a villain after but she still has the origin that she did not get her way after being blackmailed for so long. That's just my opinion mind.
    Cheetah being manipulated into becoming Cheetah hardly matters when she turned against Cale at the end and Cale had barely any control over her in the first place. And now she's in the Legion of Doom, so she's doing fine.

  15. #120
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    Can't stand the whole Azz's run is just about Greek god.

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