Azz’s run(new 52) vs Rucka’s run(rebirth)

[hkgkindaichi]

For me, origin changed in N52 is the huge mistake.
This is Diana we are taking about, the Trinity.
Clark is always the last son of krypton.
Bruce is always the orphan.
Diana must always made from clay. This is also what make her so special in the DCU.

[Korath]

Just because Marston did it doesn't mean that it's good or even perfect feminism to be upheld for the end of time.

I can understand why Marston did everything he did when he created Wonder Woman, since women were even more oppressed then that they are now (which is saying something, because even as a man I can see plainly how unfairly they are treated simply because they were born girls and not boys).

It still doesn't meant that his work can very esily lean into putting the darkest aspects of Human nature on a pedestal, what with a perfectly healthy and very Advanced segregationist, isolationist society, made of perfect warrior woman and yet incredibly peaceful, whose Champion is The Perfect Woman born of no Man but from Clay. Oh, and they shun the outside world because Men are violent, stupid, stubborn, destructive, etc.

Am I really the only one who can't help but see it in the Amazons of Paradise Island ?

Am I really the only one off-put by it ?

How would you react if someone did the exact same thing albeit with only men, with the added bonus that the Outside World would be bad because Women would be said to be vainglorious, petty, stupid (and you can add every mysoginistic BS here, really) ? I hope you'd all find it disgusting and not something healthy to build anyone, let alone a hero.

Zeus being Diana's father doesn't change much of what I loath in the way the Amazons exist as a society in today's comics, since the Clay birth is the least off-putting in my eyes (even with the eugenistic/transhumanist undertones that I can't help but feel here, and I hate both of those "movements"), but at least it's a start.

[hgzip]

I hope so, it's such a extreme act... :/ I didn't read any history books about amazons but there were a group of women in Y The Last Man comics and they were called amazons and they were cutting one of their boobs, so i thought the real amazons also cut one of their boobs since wanna bes in Y The Last Man practiced that as a rituel to be amazons. But that's my only source of information about the practice and my assumptions and some people say original amazons really did that. I have never read any acilamed history book from a respected historian about amazons.

I suggest you google 'amazons breast' or similar... In very short terms, the amazons were supposed to live in the time of Heracles and the Trojan War, which is long before any written language existed in Greece. (The Trojan War is supposed to happen around 1500 B.C.) Homer, and the legends about the Gods and heroes, spoke about 'amazons', but never gave a translation or an origin of the word.

Later, an armchair historian tried to assign a meaning to the word. He came up with the idea that it's made from 'a-' ('without', 'not') and 'mazos', which he interpreted as a derivative of 'mastos' ('female breast'). Hence, 'a-mazos' = 'breastless', and that's the idea that stuck - probably because it is so repulsive.

As others said, this is B.S. There are multiple other interpetations of the word that have nothing to do with cutting off body parts... A modern book claimed that there is no word in an ancient language that has more different attempts at translation/interpretation than 'amazon'. Possibly, it's not even Greek, but a word in some other language that the Greeks wrote down phonetically - e.g. from Persian 'hamazan' = warrior.

Also, it is my understanding the the Greeks were very precise with their language. Cutting off one breast wouldn't make a woman 'breastless', but 'one-breasted' - which would be something like 'mono-mastos'; and the amazons would actually be 'mono-mazons'

[kjn]

Just because Marston did it doesn't mean that it's good or even perfect feminism to be upheld for the end of time.

I can understand why Marston did everything he did when he created Wonder Woman, since women were even more oppressed then that they are now (which is saying something, because even as a man I can see plainly how unfairly they are treated simply because they were born girls and not boys).

It still doesn't meant that his work can very esily lean into putting the darkest aspects of Human nature on a pedestal, what with a perfectly healthy and very Advanced segregationist, isolationist society, made of perfect warrior woman and yet incredibly peaceful, whose Champion is The Perfect Woman born of no Man but from Clay. Oh, and they shun the outside world because Men are violent, stupid, stubborn, destructive, etc.

Am I really the only one who can't help but see it in the Amazons of Paradise Island ?

Am I really the only one off-put by it ?

How would you react if someone did the exact same thing albeit with only men, with the added bonus that the Outside World would be bad because Women would be said to be vainglorious, petty, stupid (and you can add every mysoginistic BS here, really) ? I hope you'd all find it disgusting and not something healthy to build anyone, let alone a hero.

Zeus being Diana's father doesn't change much of what I loath in the way the Amazons exist as a society in today's comics, since the Clay birth is the least off-putting in my eyes (even with the eugenistic/transhumanist undertones that I can't help but feel here, and I hate both of those "movements"), but at least it's a start.

I'm not really sure what you are arguing about here.

I don't think anyone's here says or believes that Marston's vision of the Amazons is the one true way or even really valid today. He was by all accounts an outlier in his view of gender, and feminism and other theories associated with it have evolved a lot since then. Good writers like Rucka, Perez, De Liz, and Simone have all examined and re-imagined Amazon society in various ways, including ways in which it has problems and issues, or why it is isolated from Man's World. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Wilson continued that route, if she decides to do some stories involving Themyscira. However, I'd hope that she went the other way, and looked into how Diana would view the practices of our society; that's something that I don't really think any writer has explored since Marston, though Rucka did a few hints here and there.

That said, I do think it is extremely important for Wonder Woman's character that her origin lies in a society that in many ways is better able to care for its members, and is more benevolent and supporting, than our society is: a society that she willingly gave up in order to help make our society better. I also believe it's important from a story-telling standpoint that Wonder Woman is the result of women's actions and love. They get erased enough from our history and stories already. That's why I'm so vehemently against the daddy-Zeus origin: because it ties into the meme that it is the father that matters, and thus erases Amazon society from her story.

The clay birth also has extremely strong mythical resonances, arguably even stronger than the daddy-Zeus origin. If this is transhumanism, then Christianity is so as well.

Last I'd say that Themyscira is a female power fantasy. But men already live surrounded in a permanent power fantasy, and Themyscira is the only attempt to critique that within superhero comics. That's why I feel that many attempts to critizise Themyscira are fundamentally disingenuous, because they focus on the flaws and problems they see in that power fantasy, while not doing the same to the dominant—male—power fantasies of our society.

[Korath]

Last I'd say that Themyscira is a female power fantasy. But men already live surrounded in a permanent power fantasy, and Themyscira is the only attempt to critique that within superhero comics. That's why I feel that many attempts to critizise Themyscira are fundamentally disingenuous, because they focus on the flaws and problems they see in that power fantasy, while not doing the same to the dominant—male—power fantasies of our society.

Then Themyscira is a problem, because if girls' only power fantasy turns out to be a segregationist society, then we have a problem. And I know that it may not shock U.S. peoples as it does me, because you've got all your separated communities living alongside each other but not with each other, but here in France the idea (because the execution is way off) is that there is only one community, and everyone is a part of it, skin color, gender, sexual affiliation and all having no bearing on it, simply the will to be a part of it. And in that light, paradise island is a terrible archetype to offer to women -and men, really, because it gives the idea that things are better when peoples don't mingle with each others, something I find abhorrent.

[Gaelforce]

Then Themyscira is a problem, because if girls' only power fantasy turns out to be a segregationist society, then we have a problem. And I know that it may not shock U.S. peoples as it does me, because you've got all your separated communities living alongside each other but not with each other, but here in France the idea (because the execution is way off) is that there is only one community, and everyone is a part of it, skin color, gender, sexual affiliation and all having no bearing on it, simply the will to be a part of it. And in that light, paradise island is a terrible archetype to offer to women -and men, really, because it gives the idea that things are better when peoples don't mingle with each others, something I find abhorrent.

I don't believe anyone has said it is the 'only' power fantasy, just *a* power fantasy.

What if we *didn't* have the restrictions men put on us? What if we didn't have men at all? This is a perfectly viable fantasy approach to the issue of a male dominated society - much better than 'what if the roles were reversed,' because women, in general, don't want to treat men as men have treated women. That would be a revenge fantasy, so it was imagined in this particular instance, as a society where men weren't a factor.

As to clay vs Zeus? Clay wins hands down for me. The mother/daughter relationship is largely absent in comics as both male and female characters are driven by father/child relationships (if by any parental relationship)

The idea that a woman wanted a child so much that she created one out of clay? That's a strong message of motherhood.

The idea that a woman got knocked up as a side effect of an adulterous relationship? Not so much.

The concept of a hero whose strength comes from the feminine and not the masculine? By a mother and by sisters and by goddesses? Incredibly powerful for some.

The concept of a hero whose strength comes from an absentee father and a war god's training? Generic at best.

[kjn]

Then Themyscira is a problem, because if girls' only power fantasy turns out to be a segregationist society, then we have a problem. And I know that it may not shock U.S. peoples as it does me, because you've got all your separated communities living alongside each other but not with each other, but here in France the idea (because the execution is way off) is that there is only one community, and everyone is a part of it, skin color, gender, sexual affiliation and all having no bearing on it, simply the will to be a part of it. And in that light, paradise island is a terrible archetype to offer to women -and men, really, because it gives the idea that things are better when peoples don't mingle with each others, something I find abhorrent.

Apart from what most everything that Gaelforce said, I'm all for more and more varied power fantasies for girls and women. That we don't have enough of them is not grounds for criticising the ones we do have for not being good enough.

Also, like many other posters here I'm not American. I'm Swedish.

[Korath]

I don't believe anyone has said it is the 'only' power fantasy, just *a* power fantasy.

What if we *didn't* have the restrictions men put on us? What if we didn't have men at all? This is a perfectly viable fantasy approach to the issue of a male dominated society - much better than 'what if the roles were reversed,' because women, in general, don't want to treat men as men have treated women. That would be a revenge fantasy, so it was imagined in this particular instance, as a society where men weren't a factor.

As to clay vs Zeus? Clay wins hands down for me. The mother/daughter relationship is largely absent in comics as both male and female characters are driven by father/child relationships (if by any parental relationship)

The idea that a woman wanted a child so much that she created one out of clay? That's a strong message of motherhood.

The idea that a woman got knocked up as a side effect of an adulterous relationship? Not so much.

The concept of a hero whose strength comes from the feminine and not the masculine? By a mother and by sisters and by goddesses? Incredibly powerful for some.

The concept of a hero whose strength comes from an absentee father and a war god's training? Generic at best.

True. But it doesn't change the undertone : Wonder Woman comes from a segregationist society which is better than a non-segregationist one. I'm sorry but if such a society isn't depicted as extremely flawed, in my eyes it is a toxic message, promoting exclusion of other peoples for a society to thrive and achieve the best.

I get why women can not feel that way about it, but it's just like The Punisher whose roots are (to me) reeking of Toxic Masculinity : I just can't like it or accept it.

[AmiMizuno]

There are real-life female only villages. Dc Universe has other segregationists too. I honestly would have balanced it out more.

The reason why the Amazons are female only is that of a war between Ares and the Amazons. He killed more of the males because they were weak to him. A few survived but were killed off due to the doom gate opening. So the Amazons were left with only women.

Not only that but some amazons cursed the Island for men.

[kjn]

True. But it doesn't change the undertone : Wonder Woman comes from a segregationist society which is better than a non-segregationist one. I'm sorry but if such a society isn't depicted as extremely flawed, in my eyes it is a toxic message, promoting exclusion of other peoples for a society to thrive and achieve the best.

I get why women can not feel that way about it, but it's just like The Punisher whose roots are (to me) reeking of Toxic Masculinity : I just can't like it or accept it.

But is Amazon society segregationist? To me, for most of their history they have simply been isolated, for various different reasons, most of them externally mandated.

There is also a difference between segregation where a group of people use it to reserve power and opportunities to themselves, and using it to rule the excluded groups. There are no men on Themyscira. Saying the Amazons are segregating would be similar to saying that every other isolated group is segregating to everyone else not in contact with them.

You could also make exactly the same claim against real-world groups like the monasteries on Athos.

[SiegePerilous02]

True. But it doesn't change the undertone : Wonder Woman comes from a segregationist society which is better than a non-segregationist one. I'm sorry but if such a society isn't depicted as extremely flawed, in my eyes it is a toxic message, promoting exclusion of other peoples for a society to thrive and achieve the best.

I get why women can not feel that way about it, but it's just like The Punisher whose roots are (to me) reeking of Toxic Masculinity : I just can't like it or accept it.

They are not presented as being without their own flaws though, or being inherently better than others. If that were the case, they wouldn't have been as susceptible as the outside visitors to Eris's manipulations in the Feast of Five storyline, Philippus wouldn't have been hostile towards Steve in both post-Crisis and Rebirth due to her experiences before learning to be more accepting, and they wouldn't have mistreated and gone to war with the Amazons of Bana-Mighdall if they had been flawless. In Jimenez's run, they only became truly advanced when both tribes stopped fighting and united together and opened their shores to outside societies. Marston's ideals haven't been the norm for this franchise for a great long time, and even he undermined his "an all female society is more perfect than a mixed one dominated by men" by having Diana fall in love with a man and go live in Man's World.

They are a society that took advantage of the opportunity given to them to take themselves out of the game after their city was destroyed and they were enslaved and raped, after their reputations were slandered and their legacy tarnished by the society they attempted to stand together with. It's possible to examine their isolationism and flaws without casting them as villains, presenting them as positive role models who raised and empowered the greatest female hero without making them flawless. Attacking their perceived segregationist views and casting them as baby and man killers without at least addressing what made them behave that way is just a lazy route to take that misses the whole point of the franchise. When it comes to the Amazons, Azzarello wasn't being smart of calling out problems that needed to be called out, he was appealing to the lowest common denominator. And DC thankfully wised up and learned that his Amazons (if not DC's that he only delivered on their marching orders) were more trouble than they are worth and got rid of them.

[Amazon Swordsman]

Is Wakanda also by extension an example of a xenophobic, segregationist society then? Many people praised its depiction as a possible ideal nation for black people. An African country that was never tarnished by outside influence of colonialism. Many people praised its depiction as an example of “Afro futurism”. Are people wrong for liking something like that?

You can have a decent society of various people whose lives don’t have to intersect or mingle at every level, but at a basic human level, have tolerance and respect. Having a fully, intermingled society (whatever that means) as a prerequisite to be an ideal society sounds strange, as it presumes all members of the various backgrounds even WANT to mingle in whatever ways. It also doesn’t consider that there may be enclaves of people with common backgrounds associating with one another when not doing forced mingling, which tells me that if it were up to people individually, people like to spend time with other people who have common background, beliefs, or interests.

In that regard, I don’t see the issue with Themyscira being portrayed as a possible idealized society for women.

[Carabas]

Is Wakanda also by extension an example of a xenophobic, segregationist society then?

Of course it is. That's like the point of practically half of all memorable Black Panther stories.

Wakanda not being a very nice country towards non-Wakandans is the status quo that T'Challa must fix. That's how it's been from day one.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Rucka did a better job with the existing/classic WW lore while Azzarello focused more on his own creations or the greek mythos.

[Korath]

Of course it is. That's like the point of practically half of all memorable Black Panther stories.

Wakanda not being a very nice country towards non-Wakandans is the status quo that T'Challa must fix. That's how it's been from day one.

Exactly. Even in the movie, the whole point of it was that all the bad came from the fact that Wakanda remained isolationist and aloof : Killmonger was created because of such Policy. T'Challa choice at the end is to open Wakanda to the world and shere its troves of knowledge and technology to help uplift everyone, starting with the less favored.