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  1. #136
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Exactly. Even in the movie, the whole point of it was that all the bad came from the fact that Wakanda remained isolationist and aloof : Killmonger was created because of such Policy. T'Challa choice at the end is to open Wakanda to the world and shere its troves of knowledge and technology to help uplift everyone, starting with the less favored.
    But I will point out one thing which makes this situation totally different.

    Wakanda was a superior culture with superior technology that thrived in secret for hundreds of years without any outside influence.

    Themyscira used to be the same...and eventually did open up the doors to share everything.

    The problem lies in that the movie interpretation is that if you take a group of women and isolate them, they will advance in absolutely nothing and remain in the bronze age for eternity.

    That's the dichotomy that is upsetting so many WW/Amazon fans - that other comic book isolated cultures (Gorilla City, Atlantis, Wakanda) all advance in spectacular ways as the Amazons once did, but that now the Amazons have gone nowhere either technologically or mystically or as a combination of the two.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    True. But it doesn't change the undertone : Wonder Woman comes from a segregationist society which is better than a non-segregationist one. I'm sorry but if such a society isn't depicted as extremely flawed, in my eyes it is a toxic message, promoting exclusion of other peoples for a society to thrive and achieve the best.

    I get why women can not feel that way about it, but it's just like The Punisher whose roots are (to me) reeking of Toxic Masculinity : I just can't like it or accept it.
    Well, I think we really need to examine this point in context of the larger history. The Amazons aren't just any "segregationist society." In the ancient Greek myths, the idea of the Amazons was actually used as a propaganda tool to suppress women in society. They were portrayed as ravenous and barbaric and dysfunctional in order for the ancient Greek patriarchs to point to them and say "see, this is what happens when we leave women to their own devices and that is why they need a strong male influence to guide them."

    So, when William Moulton Marston depicted the Amazons as a peaceful and, yes, functional society, that was his way of combating the sexist narrative that women couldn't possibly helm a functional society without men telling them what to do. He was a feminist who believed that women should be able to decide their own destinies. Therefore, Azzarello's depiction of the Amazons, even if well-intentioned, played into that same sexist narrative that Marston was trying to combat all those years ago.

  3. #138
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Exactly. Even in the movie, the whole point of it was that all the bad came from the fact that Wakanda remained isolationist and aloof : Killmonger was created because of such Policy. T'Challa choice at the end is to open Wakanda to the world and shere its troves of knowledge and technology to help uplift everyone, starting with the less favored.
    Except other WW writers were able to do similar things with Themyscira without the need to make baby killing a seeming cultural norm while ignoring how their society had been abused by men in the past.

    Trying to change/educate Themyscira has gone hand in hand with Diana's mission to bring their ideals to Man's World since at least the Perez run, if not sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    The problem lies in that the movie interpretation is that if you take a group of women and isolate them, they will advance in absolutely nothing and remain in the bronze age for eternity.
    In fairness to the movie, this is the price of listing George Perez as the main influence since his take was readily embraced by a lot of people, and he didn't give the Amazons technological advancements. And it lasted for quite a long time before Jimenez gave it back, and then the New 52 set them back again briefly.

    So I'm not too thrilled either and hope the sequels show more of Themyscira and reveal some advancements, but there is unfortunately precedent in two VERY prolific runs.

  4. #139
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I do think if you want the Amazons to appear both advance but also look like they are frozen in time, is make their tech similar style. Expect for a few things

  5. #140
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    But I will point out one thing which makes this situation totally different.

    Wakanda was a superior culture with superior technology that thrived in secret for hundreds of years without any outside influence.

    Themyscira used to be the same...and eventually did open up the doors to share everything.

    The problem lies in that the movie interpretation is that if you take a group of women and isolate them, they will advance in absolutely nothing and remain in the bronze age for eternity.

    That's the dichotomy that is upsetting so many WW/Amazon fans - that other comic book isolated cultures (Gorilla City, Atlantis, Wakanda) all advance in spectacular ways as the Amazons once did, but that now the Amazons have gone nowhere either technologically or mystically or as a combination of the two.
    To be fair Hudlin was the one who made it that Wakanda was ALWAYS super advanced compared to everyone else. Originally I believe their technological superiority was something that T’Chaka was responsible for, and outside the cities Wakandans could be VERY poor off and still putting their tribal loyalties over their loyalty to Wakanda as a whole. And Wakanda has vibranium which is a magic metal that can basically do whatever the writer wants.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    But I will point out one thing which makes this situation totally different.

    Wakanda was a superior culture with superior technology that thrived in secret for hundreds of years without any outside influence.

    Themyscira used to be the same...and eventually did open up the doors to share everything.

    The problem lies in that the movie interpretation is that if you take a group of women and isolate them, they will advance in absolutely nothing and remain in the bronze age for eternity.

    That's the dichotomy that is upsetting so many WW/Amazon fans - that other comic book isolated cultures (Gorilla City, Atlantis, Wakanda) all advance in spectacular ways as the Amazons once did, but that now the Amazons have gone nowhere either technologically or mystically or as a combination of the two.
    I guess an argument could be made that while the Amazons didn't advance technologically, the machines one can build are not the only measure of how advanced a civilisation is.

    Atlantis has had civil wars, and we can see that Wakanda is far from a perfect paradise either.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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