Azz’s run(new 52) vs Rucka’s run(rebirth)

[Amazon Swordsman]

I notice most who praise Azzarello WW list the supporting cast or the interpretation of the gods as the first, or greatest contribution to the run, very telling. Maybe most of said people weren’t WW fans before his run, and perhaps aren’t as much in his abscence. Clearly the happenings of the surrounding characters reasonated more with them than what was being done to Diana herself.

[numberthirty]

I notice most who praise Azzarello WW list the supporting cast or the interpretation of the gods as the first, or greatest contribution to the run, very telling. Maybe most of said people weren’t WW fans before his run, and perhaps aren’t as much in his abscence. Clearly the happenings of the surrounding characters reasonated more with them than what was being done to Diana herself.

I'd say that's a lot less clear than you would like to believe.

[AmiMizuno]

Male dominated origin is what’s Azz origin was. Diana was more of a supporting cast in her own book. She shouldn’t be a supporting cast in her own book. Male gods were more imrpotsnt than the amazons . Amazons training didn’t make Diana who she was but Ares. Everything Diana learned was Ares. The amazons are a**holes

[numberthirty]

I'd say that you have to ignore quite a bit to assert "Azzarello did Diana a disservice while Rucka did not."

No matter how you personally feel about the run some facts are concrete...

- During the Rucka run, Diana spends part of it as a shattered pawn sitting in a mental home while another character takes the wheel.

That is a disservice. Azzarello's Diana was calling her own shots for the entirety of the run.

[Amazon Swordsman]

I'd say that's a lot less clear than you would like to believe.

Just an observation.

[numberthirty]

Male dominated origin is what’s Azz origin was. Diana was more of a supporting cast in her own book. She shouldn’t be a supporting cast in her own book. Male gods were more imrpotsnt than the amazons . Amazons training didn’t make Diana who she was but Ares. Everything Diana learned was Ares. The amazons are a**holes

This is just flatly untrue. What did you read that brought you to that conclusion?

[Joao]

I notice most who praise Azzarello WW list the supporting cast or the interpretation of the gods as the first, or greatest contribution to the run, very telling. Maybe most of said people weren’t WW fans before his run, and perhaps aren’t as much in his abscence. Clearly the happenings of the surrounding characters reasonated more with them than what was being done to Diana herself.

Exactly my case, although I turned into a WW fan, read more stuff and got to know what everyone loved about her later on (:

[Joao]

Also, there is absolutely nothing I don't like about Rucka's amazons (even if I wish he didn't only use his amazons and was open to reintegrate others - like Mala, Orana, etc.). Especially the balance of tech and simplicity (or, as Steve said, advanced knowledge but simple living). They had the purple ray, could turn the jet invisible with some kind of natural resource and were obviously really smart people. Not being too over the top with their science relates a bit with their religion, I guess. Also, writers tend to go nuts when the amazons are too hi-tech.

[AmiMizuno]

This is just flatly untrue. What did you read that brought you to that conclusion?

We spent more time with Ares than with the amazons.

[numberthirty]

We spent more time with Ares than with the amazons.

How big of a deal is that?

Who trained the Diana whose abilities caught Ares' eye?

[Carabas]

Male dominated origin is what’s Azz origin was. Diana was more of a supporting cast in her own book. She shouldn’t be a supporting cast in her own book. Male gods were more imrpotsnt than the amazons . Amazons training didn’t make Diana who she was but Ares. Everything Diana learned was Ares. The amazons are a**holes

This just isn't true on any level at all.

Zeus isn't even in it except in one flashback page.
Ares was interested in Diana only because she already was just that good thanks to Amazon training, she rejected his teachings, and he learned more from her than she from him.

If you read that #0 issue and came away with the idea that Ares trained Diana and made who she is, then you need to read it again.

In fact at the end of the saga, the only reason she wins is because she rejected Ares and his ideas.

[kjn]

I will never understand why writers just never use whats come before with Wonder Woman. It's like they're afraid of consistency or something.

I think that has been discussed a lot in earlier threads here. My own theory on why Diana's origins are constantly rehashed is that many (most?) of her writers have been or are uncomfortable with Diana's feminist roots on a fundamental level. They simply shy away from developing those themes, and as a result they go back and create a new character and origin with the elements that they are comfortable working with. But it also makes nearly every version of Wonder Woman hollow, since a central part of her character concept has been torn out.

Another factor is that Wonder Woman brings too many toys to the table. With Superman and Batman, the entire character mythos is contained in the DC stories. While you can bring in the story of Moses to Superman, this is more on a thematic and inspiration level. With Wonder Woman, you have the entirety of Greek myth right there in the toolbox. Here it was Perez who opened the floodgates.

Note that I'm not putting Marston's version of Wonder Woman and the Amazons on a pedestal here. But I'd argue that very few of the later writers have managed to fruitfully engage and update the feminist themes that Marston used. Perez did it partially. Gail Simone did it with "The Circle". De Liz did it with The Legend of Wonder Woman.

[brettc1]

I think Azzarello had a stronger plot in some ways. Rucka felt like he was being rushed to get something on the shelves that could have been fleshed out a bit more.

That said, I will take Rebirth over the rape-a-zons any day of the week.

Also, Scar from The Lion King called and said if anyone wants an INTERESTING villain who leads an army of hyenas, he's between bookings right now.

[Restingvoice]

The negative on Azzarello's run for me is the misandrist amazon, Diana child of Zeus, lack of classic villains or supporting cast and that it's so separate from the larger DCU. He built his own Wonder Woman mythos and for the most part is good, but it runs on its own.

Rucka is more classic. His negatives are eliminating Ares as a threat even before Diana was born and keeping Amazons sealed away. The other negative is the DC mandate that require Diana to still be Zeus' child but that's not his fault. I don't like changing the story to be "just an illusion" because I find that freaking lazy, but that's mostly DC's fault that require New 52 to still be canon instead of going full reboot.

[Nyssane]

AZZARELLO
+ Fantastic artwork by Cliff Chiang.
+ For the most part, great redesigns for the Olympian Gods. Particular standouts include Apollo, Artemis, Hermes, Strife, and Demeter.
+ Hera is the standout character of the run.
I have a *lot* of issues with his run, but I'll list them in order from worst to not-as-bad:
– The Amazons. I'm honestly not sure why this isn't a bigger issue for many people. It is one of the most insulting portrayals of DC's Amazons, if not the most, in comics history.
– Wonder Woman grabbing Orion's testicles. I get it, she was threatening him not to slap her on the ass, but you don't answer sexual harassment/assault with sexual harassment/assault. Especially now in the #METOO era, having THE feminist superhero grab a man's genitals is just utterly disgusting.
– Complete disregard for Wonder Woman's feminist themes. We barely get Diana interacting with any women, and when we do, it's with the completely void-of-personality Zola or with the vastly disappointing villain Cassandra. The men outshine the women in every way possible in this run. Instead of being trained by her sisters, it's Ares who trains her. Instead of getting her "gifts" from female gods, it's Zeus who is her creator.
– Ditching Wonder Woman's classic characters. Would they ever completely rid Superman or Batman of their supporting cast and villains and replace them with brand new ones? I highly doubt it, reboot or not. It's very frustrating, to say the least. Even worse, he created characters like Aleka and Dessa who had similar designs and roles to Artemis and Philippus (although looking back on it, I'm glad they weren't).
– The First Born is a rubbish villain that doesn't fit the tone or theme of Wonder Woman. He feels like what a 10 year old boy would think is a cool villain for Diana to fight.
– I'm absolutely in the clay origin camp. Zeus being Diana's father doesn't outrage me, but it does strip some uniqueness from the character. Now in terms of origin, she's just She-Hercules.
– Aphrodite. Azzarello and Chiang took who is arguably the most important god historically to Diana and reduced her to a naked, faceless woman. It's just insulting.
– Orion and the New Gods. I personally love the Fourth World but I *hated* seeing them shoehorned into Wonder Woman's already bloated series.
– As has been said by many others, and often cited as the biggest issue (well, second-biggest as the amazons seem to be pretty universally hated), Diana felt like a supporting character in her own series. There were far too many characters and far too little actually moving the story forward that it felt like Diana was a C-Lister in an ensemble cast and not the titular character.
– I also really didn't like how early on she was so willing to hurt/kill her enemies without a second thought.
– This is random, but it always bugged me how she stole the harpy's egg in #0 in order to make her birthday cake. Harpies may be monsters but she was a sentient creature screaming about her offspring being taken from her... it's f'd up.

RUCKA
+ Fantastic artwork by Nicola Scott, Bilquis Evely, and Liam Sharp.
+ Barbara Ann Minerva as the Cheetah. It's what many of us have been begging for: a writer came onto the book and developed Cheetah in a way that nobody has before. She's far and away the most interesting part of Rebirth, and I love that DC in general seems to be staying with Rucka's version.
+ The feminist themes were all there (though it could feel a bit too in-your-face at times). Diana had fully realized relationships with Etta, Barbara Ann, Veronica, her sisters, her mother, etc.
+ The use of her classic cast. Azzarello ditched them, Rucka brought them back. I'm talking Steve, Etta, Philippus, Cheetah, Dr. Poison, Ferdinand, Deimos/Phobos, Circe, etc.
+ Year One was a fantastic introduction to Wonder Woman and her world for new (and old) readers.
+ Veronica Cale was infinitely more interesting here than she was the first time around, and her creation of Godwatch adds a great villainous team for future stories.
+ Doctor Cyber. She was an absolute highlight in terms of villains; fun yet very sympathetic. Great backstory, great motivation, and I love that she considers herself a "digital goddess" as it adds a deeper layer of magic vs. technology themes to Wonder Woman's rogues gallery.
+ The Lies. I'm so glad that Azzarello's run has been retconned away, and Rucka told the story well. It could have easily been cheaper and more ridiculous, but he kept it neat.
– Diana's mental breakdown felt strange.
– I wasn't a huge fan of Colonel Poison being more soldier than scientist.
– Circe's design wasn't my favorite.
– Rucka's constant use of his pet characters is frustrating... I love Ferdinand, but how was he able to bring Diana back down to earth? Not to mention Veronica Cale being the primary villain (though I loved it), Sasha Bordeaux now being a supporting character, and Io being one of the few existing mentioned amazons. Unlike Azz, he does balance it out with using other pre-existing characters, but it can be frustrating nonetheless.