Azz’s run(new 52) vs Rucka’s run(rebirth)

[Stanlos]

What makes Rucka's run great ? All the character were either bland (Trevor, Etta, Diana, etc.), absolutely uninteresting (Cheetah, whom he failed to ever make me care about her, and ended his run with her evil again with the stupidest reasons, instead of truly seeking a way to be uncursed as she had been early on in the run; etc.), and generally offering a boring story (well, two boring stories) which pleased only the old crowd instead of developing or creating anything, all the while ditching arrogantly and quite inelegantly the previous five years, making Diana a whore, good for easy sex and nothing else. There is nothing of worth in Rucka's run. Nothing. If he had been less egotistical and used Rebirth (which was never advertised as a reboot, unlike the New 52!) to build upon Jason, Diana and her comic wouldn't be in the sorry state they are in today, after two years of aimless and frankly bad stories.

And his Amazons were exactly as I expect the "perfect little princesses" that peoples apparently want them to be : useless, boring and utterly uninteresting, bringing nothing at all to the story.

When did Rucka have Diana trade sex for money? When/how would such a thing even be possible/necessary? I just got the deluxe Rebirth WW volumes and don't remember this. Do expound if you can.

[brettc1]

If they do it only once every 30 year, and the last time was maybe 20 years before the League even existed...

That I understand. But while it may be outside of their time frame I do NOT agree it is out of their jurisdiction. If a bunch of rogue Amazons went out and sex-murdered some sailors in the present, the League should not be turning a blind eye on the argument that Themyscira is a Soverign nation.

I can imagine Diana arguing it would be better for to deal with internally, but that's not the same thing.

[brettc1]

What makes Rucka's run great ? All the character were either bland (Trevor, Etta, Diana, etc.), absolutely uninteresting (Cheetah, whom he failed to ever make me care about her, and ended his run with her evil again with the stupidest reasons, instead of truly seeking a way to be uncursed as she had been early on in the run; etc.), and generally offering a boring story (well, two boring stories) which pleased only the old crowd instead of developing or creating anything, all the while ditching arrogantly and quite inelegantly the previous five years, making Diana a whore, good for easy sex and nothing else. There is nothing of worth in Rucka's run. Nothing. If he had been less egotistical and used Rebirth (which was never advertised as a reboot, unlike the New 52!) to build upon Jason, Diana and her comic wouldn't be in the sorry state they are in today, after two years of aimless and frankly bad stories.

And his Amazons were exactly as I expect the "perfect little princesses" that peoples apparently want them to be : useless, boring and utterly uninteresting, bringing nothing at all to the story.

Well, if only some people can be happy I choose me to be one of them.

[AmiMizuno]

The one problem is how would they even know the amazons are killing people? I mean Aquaman and the other sea kingdoms have never stopped murders or even tell them to stop polluting

[responsarbre]

I'm really, really surprised that Rucka's second run is as divisive as it is, or that people would say that it's straight up the worst Wonder Woman. (I went back and read the Finch run and I'm really struggling to see how Rucka is worse than that.) I really enjoy the vast majority of Rucka's output, so I'm a little biased, but at its worst, his Wonder Woman was average.

The present day stories were weaker. I sort of hated Liam Sharp's art on Wonder Woman; he's known for a specific style and atmosphere, and that style is wildly incongruent with the stuff we saw in the flashback sections. I didn't dislike them, though. They were at least as compelling as the Azzarello stories, and they brought back a lot of that classic Wonder Woman feeling that had been missing ever since the beginning of the New 52.

The past stories were just great all around. Nicola Scott and Bilquis Evely are superstars, and the stuff with Steve, Cheetah, Etta, Cale, etc. was all great there, too. I liked his take on Hippolyta, and I am in the camp that thinks he was right to fix the Amazons.

Azzarello wrote a compelling story, with some interesting side players, and absolutely beautiful art (both Cliff Chiang and Goran Sudžuka were amazing). But it wasn't really a Wonder Woman story. All of the changes to the mythos feel like an edgy attempt to deconstruct Marston's feminist ideals, while barely even understanding the reasoning behind them. Zeus is retroactively inserted into her story; her powers come not from the gods rewarding her mother's love but because she's a secret love-child, which conveniently eliminates the male-free ideal of her birth. The Amazons are no longer ageless and timeless, they have to have new children, so they seduce men under false pretense and murder them for literally! no! reason! The reason the Amazons are all-female is because they're evil misandrists who would be happy killing male children, if not for the fact that they can cast them off as slaves to Haephestus. The Amazons aren't loving or supportive, they hate Diana because she's different and special. They're brutal and nasty and awful.

It's such a mean, nasty view of Wonder Woman's history that it wasn't tenable to keep as the main universe depiction of Diana. It would be like replacing Superman with Miracleman, or all the Charleston characters with the Watchmen. Deconstructions are attractive, and make for good thought-experiments and rich stories, but superhero universes aren't built upon deconstructions. You have to buy into the myth behind superheroes in order for them to work.

I also don't think all of Azzarello's cast were quite that interesting. The other demigod that Diana hung around with was kind of boring, Zola could have been fleshed out a little better, and a couple of the Greek gods were only saved by Chiang's inventive and beautiful designs. There were a couple moments that didn't land for me, like when Hades love bullet didn't work because Diana "loves everyone." When had we seen Azz's Diana be universally loving?

[Sacred Knight]

I'm not a fan by any stretch but I would agree anyone calling it the worst run of all time is greatly exaggerating. For me, it wasn't the worst thing ever. It just wasn't any good. I wasn't a fan of the characterizations outside of the villains, and as part of the "Rebirth" initiative it failed at solidifying a concrete history (not that Rucka is the only writer who failed there, lots of properties' histories make no sense anymore).

[AmiMizuno]

The thing is like Batman and Superman there are certain that need to be the same. I mean that's the problem with Diana, I mean look at the finches run. However looking at Rucka's run and Robisons run at least Robinson' run isn't wiping the slate clean. However, New 52 might be back. Meaning Diana will be forever stuck in limbo of always being rebooted

[AmiMizuno]

Yea the most important parts of Diana’s origins are not really there. While her kindness is there, other parts like the amazons rising her aren’t. The amazons are suppose to be a major part of positivity for Diana. Where are these. Other than the training the amazons are terrible. Diana feels more of a supporting cast in her own book. The gods are a big part of the book. Yes there are arcs in other the gods in them but they have more balanced these parts out. The male characters are more important in his arc. The females are more of the sidelines expect Diana and Hera. The amazons look more barbaric

[Korath]

I'm really, really surprised that Rucka's second run is as divisive as it is, or that people would say that it's straight up the worst Wonder Woman. (I went back and read the Finch run and I'm really struggling to see how Rucka is worse than that.) I really enjoy the vast majority of Rucka's output, so I'm a little biased, but at its worst, his Wonder Woman was average.

Because tastes and opinions are different among peoples. Rucka's work was at Finch's level : utter trash, in my eyes. I wouldn't mind at all that the last two years of Rebirth's Diana were entirely scrapped from her continuity by another "Lol, the Gods lied to you woman" plot, at that point, if it meant that Diana got a clean slate.

[Sacred Knight]

The thing is like Batman and Superman there are certain that need to be the same. I mean that's the problem with Diana, I mean look at the finches run. However looking at Rucka's run and Robisons run at least Robinson' run isn't wiping the slate clean. However, New 52 might be back. Meaning Diana will be forever stuck in limbo of always being rebooted

This is true, but even then, I don't know if people will always agree on what certain things need to remain the same. I mean, me for example, I can be lenient on a lot. Superman needs to be rocketed from Krypton as the planet explodes and found by Jonathan and Martha Kent. The details? You can mess with those all you want as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't even care for a scenario where the Kents didn't live on a farm. With Diana I'm similar. All I really need is for her to be an Amazon from Paradise Island, a princess as the daughter of Queen Hippolyta.


As for the New 52 being back, I doubt that. At least not on Earth-0. The main continuity will continue as it is thus Diana will continue on with a quasi-post-Crisis history (biggest change really being the insertion of Steve in her life again and Zeus dad). I think the things the New 52 tried to accomplish in its original initiative WILL come back as concepts, but on a different Earth. I know that doesn't necessarily guarantee cohesion on the main Earth's Wonder Woman considering how she's oft handled, but at the very least I doubt she's outright rebooted any time soon.

[RepHope]

The only real change from the New 52 that’s sticking around is the Zeus origin. Otherwise they’ve followed what Rucka set up pretty closely.

[kjn]

The only real change from the New 52 that’s sticking around is the Zeus origin. Otherwise they’ve followed what Rucka set up pretty closely.

On the other hand, I'd say the daddy-Zeus thing is the worst thing to stick around, since it distorts the entire mythos around Wonder Woman. The badazons were such a stupendously stupid and offensive idea that it could never stick around; daddy-Zeus is an appealing idea which seemingly makes a lot of sense on the surface but is toxic as long as it remains.

(a) It makes Diana's powers and capabilities all about her father, not her mother or her aunts; (b) it opened up the door for Jason and more stories about men pushing Diana aside; (c) Zeus himself is a horribly misogynistic figure; (d) it makes the contest rigged from the start.

Heck, if Diana is about love and compassion, she'd be kicking Zeus's ass left and right, not Ares's.

[AmiMizuno]

In a sense it’s also betraying what Hippoltya stays for while yes Hippoltya does worship the gods she isn’t a fear to stand up to them. Why does she need to be written to fall in love with Zeus. Why can’t it be with another god or a regular man. Heck why can’t she feel a way to have a child with the use of amazons tech. The whole point of Diana’s origin is female centric. When you put a man like Zeus in the comic who has been abusive, cheating and at one point tried to seduce Diana why should he be her father? Not ever character needs a father.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm pretty sure Rucka's run had her receiving abilities from the pantheon so not everything she can do is because of her dad. Thus problems a and c can be safely thrown out the window as "toxic" problems. She probably inherited some feats from her father but definitely not what her full powerset is once her origin is completed, and considering she's not fully powered until her first adventure off the island, she isn't OP during the Contest either.

[kjn]

I'm pretty sure Rucka's run had her receiving abilities from the pantheon so not everything she can do is because of her dad. Thus problems a and c can be safely thrown out the window as "toxic" problems. She probably inherited some feats from her father but definitely not what her full powerset is once her origin is completed, and considering she's not fully powered until her first adventure off the island, she isn't OP during the Contest either.

However, there is a huge social and storytelling construct around someone having famous person or god as a father that is a lot stronger than simply being blessed by the gods. It's one of the strongest and longest-running memes around that it is the father that matters more than anything else, even if that father's only contribution was as a sperm donor. That's the meme that the daddy-Zeus both reinforces and draws strength from.

The Greeks were extreme in this regard. That is also why I think it's sad that Athena has become so important to the current Wonder Woman mythos, because she was all about being her father's daughter, totally erasing her mother to the degree that it was Zeus that gave birth to her.