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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    No, why would you? I'm not in any way saying it was. But that's how Steve seems to be reacting to it. He's treating it as though he had some moment of weakness, or selfishness. And that if only he could have just gone on being an old man Hydra would never have been able to take over America. It may not even be rational, strictly speaking, for Steve to feel this way. It's a very peculiar, and particular, kind of trauma, having such evil done not only in your name but with your face.

    Also, Steve almost seems to be aware that Supreme Leader Stevil is the product of the same motivations and drives that make him. That Steve himself, must, by definition, be capable of the same evils that were carried about by his replacement. Restored Steve, classic Captain America Steve, has an upbringing that shaped him and made him a hero. But Stevil wasn't reprogrammed on a personality level, he just had a different upbringing, a different history. He wasn't Mirror Universe Steve (if you're familiar with the Star Trek phenomenon), he wasn't evil twin Steve. He was, at least nominally, Steve Rogers. Same man, same core drives. Different past. Stevil fought for what he believed was right. He simply believed Hydra's fascism was the right thing. Steve has seen how his ideals can be twisted, corrupted. That has to have an impact.
    This was one of the most interesting aspects to Secret Empire, the fact that Stevil was not a brainwashed version of Steve but simply one that had all of his core characteristics but had been raised in a different way and held different, but equally passionate, beliefs. There was no moment at the end of SE where the inherent good in Stevil was awakened and he rejects fascism. He remains 100% committed to who he is, as adamant in his rightness as Steve is. I'm glad that it looks like we're going to see how seeing that twisted idealism, wearing his own face, affects Steve.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I'll be curious how deep Coates wants to take some of this stuff. There's a lot of room to explore Steve's sense of guilt, how much he blames himself for what has happened. There's also a lot of room to explore the trauma of your identity being stolen and misused. Maybe it will remain subtext, maybe it will be at the core of Coates' run. Too early to say. But so far, what has been presented has raised some fascinating questions in my mind, both in terms of how Steve is handling the Secret Empire fallout, and how people are reacting to Steve in light of same.
    We're only two issues in on this run but I'm fascinated by the prospects of where it might go and how deep into Steve's psyche Coates will dig.

    Definitely Steve harbors a lot of guilt - even though he couldn't have anticipated the consequences of Kobik's fix - and I think that's something that he won't easily be able to resolve.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 08-06-2018 at 04:45 AM.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Actually, the Kimoyo Beads were already incorporated into the Black Panther comics, also by Ta-Nehisi Coates, two years before the Black Panther movie. As for your observations on why Steve "bargained" with Kobik, the circumstances were that he was about to die from getting the crap beaten out of him by Crossbones, whom he could've defended himself against better if he still had the Super-Soldier Serum in his system. In shorter words, he took Kobik as the "only" chance he had to survive, if not win, his fight with Crossbones.
    Thanks for the correction on the beads in the comics already.

    I do see the situation Steve was in at the point of death, where Kobik was offering him a lifeline to survive. Would he grab it? I suppose so, but would Steve necessarily understand there were strings attached to that acceptance? I don’t think he would.

  3. #48

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    it should be noted that Steve had no reason to believe that Kobik was dangerous. he had no clue that the Red Skull was involved.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  4. #49
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Thanks for the correction on the beads in the comics already.

    I do see the situation Steve was in at the point of death, where Kobik was offering him a lifeline to survive. Would he grab it? I suppose so, but would Steve necessarily understand there were strings attached to that acceptance? I don’t think he would.
    I don’t think Steve saw any quid pro quo with Kobik. And I don’t think Coates is saying he was afraid to die. No, he wanted to be the hero, not left behind, much the same as in WW2, just as the text of this recent issue implies. I understand he refers to this as a bargain, but I’m not clear there was a deal.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Sharon's got a point. he could have asked for her to be rejuvenated, as well. Kobik, on her own, quickly fixed Sin's face. it was well within the scope of her abilities.
    Not really, it's not up to Steve to make deals for Sharon's youth, you can't make decisions like that for someone else when they aren't around to give their two cents on the matter. And let's be real here, Sharon was always going to get older while Steve remained younger looking, he has the super serum, she doesn't.

    If they lived their "natural lifetimes" - she would die in her 80's or 90's or whatever normal life expectancy would be and Steve would live much longer and probably look better because of the serum. It was going to happen sometime. They both were stuck in Dimension Z for years, she aged the way she would age in those years and so did he - it just so happens the serum keeps him looking younger. Yeah it's painful for her but honestly she might as well deal with it, because it was something, assuming they stayed together, she'd have had to deal with anyway. She didn't "lose years", she lived those years, in Dimension Z. He lived those years in Dimension Z - he looks better.

    When he was aged he was forcibly aged(which actually was ridiculous anyway, removing the serum shouldn't make him get old immediately, it should just mean from that point on he'd age as though he didn't have serum - he was forcibly aged when he became an old man, it wasn't natural, it wasn't life lived--he was frozen for decades when he was in his mid-20s, he was unfrozen, he was still in his mid-20's, even taking Dimension Z into account he should only be in his 40's and with the serum he's going to look younger than that). When it comes to Kobik, all he accepted was what should have been his anyway - he wasn't naturally old having lived 150-200 years of his life or whatever and now looking for regained youth. He was looking to be what he should have been if he hadn't been forcibly aged. Sharon is actually looking for regained youth, even though she's lived the actual years she's lived.

  6. #51
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Well, does Sharon accept her situation? Does she feel Steve should’ve asked Kobik to help her? Generally speaking if she was upset at Steve I would think she’d let him know. The other side of this is how Steve feels about it. He must have realized Kobik could’ve made Sharon young again.

    She does seem frustrated but then also mentions she wiser, better than she was .... maybe she has accepted it.

    Finally, kudos for ditching Bucky’s MCU face mask.
    Last edited by tliscord; 08-08-2018 at 05:03 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tliscord View Post
    Well, does Sharon accept her situation? Does she feel Steve should’ve asked Kobik to help her? Generally speaking if she was upset at Steve I would think she’d let him know. The other side of this is how Steve feels about it. He must have realized Kobik could’ve made Sharon young again.

    She does seem frustrated but then also mentions she wiser, better than she was .... maybe she has accepted it.

    Finally, kudos for ditching Bucky’s MCU face mask.
    Actually I do agree with that, I was just talking more about the position that Steve somehow failed her or was selfish for not asking for her to be made young again. I think Sharon is OK with it, doesn't love it, because few people really love looking in the mirror and seeing wrinkles, etc but I think she's been shown to have accepted it beyond the odd remark or two and who doesn't complain about aging now and again? And I think Steve wouldn't have really thought of it because he doesn't seem to care that she looks older, it doesn't change his feelings for her so he wouldn't think "Hey wouldn't it be great if she could be a hot 30 year old again too, how 'bout it magical girl?"

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's the cosmic unfairness of the Marvel Universe at work. A villain does one visible "good" deed and is rewarded with pardons and power, but a hero breaks bad once and gets s*** on forever (or at least a long while) by the public and the authorities. I am seriously baffled by how willing the public and authorities in the MU are to put their faith in monsters (as per the title of the first Warren Ellis Thunderbolts collection) while scorning the heroes who set out to protect them in the first place.
    1/. The public see super heroes as monsters too, no matter how much good the SH’s do.

    2/. The public likes to give second chances to villains.

    3/. My favourite - it progresses a super villain Treaty incorporating the bad guys into being useful in society.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    No, why would you? I'm not in any way saying it was. But that's how Steve seems to be reacting to it. He's treating it as though he had some moment of weakness, or selfishness. And that if only he could have just gone on being an old man Hydra would never have been able to take over America. It may not even be rational, strictly speaking, for Steve to feel this way. It's a very peculiar, and particular, kind of trauma, having such evil done not only in your name but with your face.

    Also, Steve almost seems to be aware that Supreme Leader Stevil is the product of the same motivations and drives that make him. That Steve himself, must, by definition, be capable of the same evils that were carried about by his replacement. Restored Steve, classic Captain America Steve, has an upbringing that shaped him and made him a hero. But Stevil wasn't reprogrammed on a personality level, he just had a different upbringing, a different history. He wasn't Mirror Universe Steve (if you're familiar with the Star Trek phenomenon), he wasn't evil twin Steve. He was, at least nominally, Steve Rogers. Same man, same core drives. Different past. Stevil fought for what he believed was right. He simply believed Hydra's fascism was the right thing. Steve has seen how his ideals can be twisted, corrupted. That has to have an impact.

    I'll be curious how deep Coates wants to take some of this stuff. There's a lot of room to explore Steve's sense of guilt, how much he blames himself for what has happened. There's also a lot of room to explore the trauma of your identity being stolen and misused. Maybe it will remain subtext, maybe it will be at the core of Coates' run. Too early to say. But so far, what has been presented has raised some fascinating questions in my mind, both in terms of how Steve is handling the Secret Empire fallout, and how people are reacting to Steve in light of same.
    I’m interested in the concept Steve Rogers might think he is like Stevil. That Sharon Carter always thought Steve was like Stevil.

    The other thread running through this is to do with fascism. Prior to WWII, there was a large thrust by socialists and communists against fascists in Italy, Spain and Germany, but they all failed because they were weak and suffered from in-fighting. The Fascists Of Germany gobbled them up when war started. I think that sentiment is what drove Stevil to think Hydra Fascism was Superior. Because of the inherent weakness of socialism and communism, and that democracy failed society by bringing on the big crash of 1929, propping up banks who were the evil behind the crash. Hydra fascism was Stevils answer. Maybe Steve thinks on another day, he could have made that decision too?

  10. #55
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    1/. The public see super heroes as monsters too, no matter how much good the SH’s do.

    2/. The public likes to give second chances to villains.

    3/. My favourite - it progresses a super villain Treaty incorporating the bad guys into being useful in society.
    If you could get the "supervillains" to abide by said treaty in the first place, but if the public sees "supervillains" and "superheroes" as interchangeable to begin with . . . maybe it is on the superheroes for not making themselves more accessible, answerable, and accountable to the public they're supposed to be protecting.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I’m interested in the concept Steve Rogers might think he is like Stevil. That Sharon Carter always thought Steve was like Stevil.

    The other thread running through this is to do with fascism. Prior to WWII, there was a large thrust by socialists and communists against fascists in Italy, Spain and Germany, but they all failed because they were weak and suffered from in-fighting. The Fascists Of Germany gobbled them up when war started. I think that sentiment is what drove Stevil to think Hydra Fascism was Superior. Because of the inherent weakness of socialism and communism, and that democracy failed society by bringing on the big crash of 1929, propping up banks who were the evil behind the crash. Hydra fascism was Stevils answer. Maybe Steve thinks on another day, he could have made that decision too?
    That's a very good point, too. If Steve had been raised differently, or if HYDRA had actually gotten its hooks into him as a child . . . because that's exactly what Stevil was --- a version of Steve Rogers who had been raised on HYDRA ideals and viewed the world through that lens. In fact, that was his justification for all of his actions leading up to and through Secret Empire, that the superheroes --- standing in for modern democracy in the real world --- had become weak and corrupt, were already undermining themselves with infighting, and would take the world down with them if they weren't toppled and a firmer, stronger, and more resilient new system was established to protect the world in their place. That's probably also something Steve is struggling with, that (he and) his fellow superheroes really might be out of touch with the people they claim to defend and champion, which did play a role in their willingness to turn to Stevil and HYDRA for security instead.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    If you could get the "supervillains" to abide by said treaty in the first place, but if the public sees "supervillains" and "superheroes" as interchangeable to begin with . . . maybe it is on the superheroes for not making themselves more accessible, answerable, and accountable to the public they're supposed to be protecting.



    That's a very good point, too. If Steve had been raised differently, or if HYDRA had actually gotten its hooks into him as a child . . . because that's exactly what Stevil was --- a version of Steve Rogers who had been raised on HYDRA ideals and viewed the world through that lens. In fact, that was his justification for all of his actions leading up to and through Secret Empire, that the superheroes --- standing in for modern democracy in the real world --- had become weak and corrupt, were already undermining themselves with infighting, and would take the world down with them if they weren't toppled and a firmer, stronger, and more resilient new system was established to protect the world in their place. That's probably also something Steve is struggling with, that (he and) his fellow superheroes really might be out of touch with the people they claim to defend and champion, which did play a role in their willingness to turn to Stevil and HYDRA for security instead.
    I’m not too familiar with the normal humans psychology in a world dominated by super humans, good or bad. What I see is the uncontested benefit of allowing super heroes full freedom and independance to operate. I think a lot of super heroes have to get to that place in themselves, because that’s the most important realisation they and normals must have. Sharon being a normal human, though, wouldn’t share that sentiment, even though she’s connected to a superhuman in Cap. Sharon has shown a tendency to consider super heroes as too dangerous. In fact those normals who do criticise super heroes do it out of being disinherited of their ability to protect themselves, having to depend on super heroes as though normals were only children.
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-14-2018 at 04:15 PM.

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