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  1. #31
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Norman Osborn chucked a girl off a bridge and was made top cop
    Quote Originally Posted by Dthirds3 View Post
    I was stated he fought against hydra and that got him a pardon in issue 1/ he's aligned himself with alexa and selina.
    That's the cosmic unfairness of the Marvel Universe at work. A villain does one visible "good" deed and is rewarded with pardons and power, but a hero breaks bad once and gets s*** on forever (or at least a long while) by the public and the authorities. I am seriously baffled by how willing the public and authorities in the MU are to put their faith in monsters (as per the title of the first Warren Ellis Thunderbolts collection) while scorning the heroes who set out to protect them in the first place.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's the cosmic unfairness of the Marvel Universe at work. A villain does one visible "good" deed and is rewarded with pardons and power, but a hero breaks bad once and gets s*** on forever (or at least a long while) by the public and the authorities.
    It's the cosmic unfairness of the real world, too. Why should the MU be any different?

    How much heinous sh*t does Trump do and say and tweet and face zero consequence for it while someone like James Gunn and others lose their jobs, become vilified by many, and have their livelihoods threatened because of something comparatively minor?

  3. #33
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It's the cosmic unfairness of the real world, too. Why should the MU be any different?

    How much heinous sh*t does Trump do and say and tweet and face zero consequence for it while someone like James Gunn and others lose their jobs, become vilified by many, and have their livelihoods threatened because of something comparatively minor?
    You got that right.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Sharon's got a point. he could have asked for her to be rejuvenated, as well. Kobik, on her own, quickly fixed Sin's face. it was well within the scope of her abilities.
    I like that Sharon is still older and yet it has not affected her and Steve's relationship.

    We definitely see in this issue that they very much still have a physical relationship so I think that's a cool thing to portray.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by responsarbre View Post
    Oh, I feel dumb. I get why I thought that it might not have been Kobik in those flashbacks. I was thinking of it as Steve talking to her during Secret Empire, and not Steve talking to her during Pleasant Hill. The line "I can make you strong again" sounded like it made a lot more sense during Pleasant Hill (when Steve was old and not strong), so I read back to Sam Wilson: Captain America #7, and what do you know, she says those exact words.
    That's cool! I would have been fine if it had just been a general approximation of what Kobik said but I appreciate that it's actually taken from an actual scene.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 08-02-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  6. #36
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    That's the cosmic unfairness of the Marvel Universe at work. A villain does one visible "good" deed and is rewarded with pardons and power, but a hero breaks bad once and gets s*** on forever (or at least a long while) by the public and the authorities. I am seriously baffled by how willing the public and authorities in the MU are to put their faith in monsters (as per the title of the first Warren Ellis Thunderbolts collection) while scorning the heroes who set out to protect them in the first place.
    We tend to hold "heroes" to a higher standard than others. Osborn blowing a green skinned alien's head off in "Dark Reign" is going to be worth some points towards rehabbing his image. Captain America pulling off a coup in "Secret Empire" is going to cost more points and credibility (of the sort that cannot be bought).



    I have only read issue 1, and flipped through issue 2. But, I notice that the page with Kobik's "make you strong" statement includes images of other characters that resisted Hydra (such as Fisk). That combined with Nuke being conflated with anti-Fa in issue one makes me curious less about what Coatse is planning than how he pulls it off.
    Current pull-file: Batman the Detective, Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, Marvel Dark Ages, Nightwing, Superman Son of Kal-El, Transformers, Transformers: King Grimlock, Warhammer 40,000 Sisters of Battle
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  7. #37
    Incredible Member Aliltron's Avatar
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    I'm LOVING this book and yeah this issue was another solid issue. I do agree that the pace could be quickened but it's a minor thing for me because I'm really enjoying the direction this series has taken. Plus the gorgeous artwork by Yu...this is one of the best books on the shelf.

  8. #38
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It's the cosmic unfairness of the real world, too. Why should the MU be any different?

    How much heinous sh*t does Trump do and say and tweet and face zero consequence for it while someone like James Gunn and others lose their jobs, become vilified by many, and have their livelihoods threatened because of something comparatively minor?
    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    We tend to hold "heroes" to a higher standard than others. Osborn blowing a green skinned alien's head off in "Dark Reign" is going to be worth some points towards rehabbing his image. Captain America pulling off a coup in "Secret Empire" is going to cost more points and credibility (of the sort that cannot be bought).



    I have only read issue 1, and flipped through issue 2. But, I notice that the page with Kobik's "make you strong" statement includes images of other characters that resisted Hydra (such as Fisk). That combined with Nuke being conflated with anti-Fa in issue one makes me curious less about what Coatse is planning than how he pulls it off.
    Those are good points, I'll admit, and while I'm generally looking forward to Coates's examination of the post-Secret Empire MU America as per the vantage point of Steve Rogers, I am also somewhat more curious as to how he pulls it off. If his Black Panther run is anything to go by, it looks like we'll be seeing a lot of previously unexamined or unchallenged notions of the status quo put under the proverbial microscope, and what we see lurking beneath the surface of that might surprise us, even if in ways that we don't necessarily like. Either way, it'll make for fine discussion and debate.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I'm just wondering how Ross got back into any position of authority after the crap he pulled as Red Hulk with the Intelligencia. Then again, I suppose as long as the general public doesn't know the connection between Ross and Red Hulk, just like they probably didn't know about the shady crap Henry Peter Gyrich was pulling for years on end . . .
    Yeah, General Ross should be the last person casting aspersions on split personalities, and Ross should know better because he was a split personality, and, Ross tried to take over the government like Stevil. And besides, in Heroic Age, Steve Rogers was Ross’ Commander in Chief anyway, so is this spite on Ross’ part?

  10. #40
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by responsarbre View Post
    Anybody else catch the second issue of Coates and Yu's Cap? I really enjoyed it.

    The Nuke army crashes the World Conference of Mayors in Chicago, and Cap shows up to dispatch them, all the while ruminating on the concept of being a soldier and the super-soldiers that have come after him. Thunderbolt Ross shows up and chastises Steve for taking action on his own instead of waiting for orders — he tells Steve that not everyone in America is convinced that Steve and Stevil are different people, and that the memories of Secret Empire are fresh in their minds.

    Back home, Steve reflects on how he feels about Secret Empire while listening to an Alex Jones-type radio host spout off conspiracy theories about how Cap and HydraCap are one and the same. Sharon comes in and checks on him, tells him he needs to forgive himself and that Ross isn't really so bad, and that she's setting out to track down some leads. Steve fishes out some beads (not unlike the ones in the Black Panther movie) and opens up a line of contact with Black Panther, Shuri, and some other Wankandans, setting up the Black Panther team-up for next issue.
    ----
    There are also a couple panels of a woman with her hand outstretched and a glowing blue light coming from her palm, and in one of them, Steve mentions a bargain that he made; the woman says "I can make you strong again." I couldn't tell exactly what was supposed to be going on there. In the first instance, I thought it was Kobik, but Kobik never really said anything along those lines to Steve. The dialogue reads like Alexa's dialogue in the FCBD issue with the Nukes, though. Not sure if what was going on there was supposed to be obvious and I just missed it, or if it's something they'll be expanding upon later.

    EDIT: Coates was referencing Cap's return to youth/the arrival of HydraCap in Sam Wilson: Captain America #7. I should have caught that!
    ----

    Overall, it was a good issue, if a little slow-paced. It reminded me of the better solo stuff from Brubaker and Bendis, and like their better stuff, it's definitely the type of story that seems like it reads better in trade. The way Steve's inner monologue was framed as an address to Sharon reminded me of Daredevil: Yellow in all the best ways. I like Coates's Cap and I like how he writes Sharon, too. I'm really intrigued to see where he goes with this.
    If Cap is fishing out Panther beads from the movie, then Marvel have made the transition complete and making the comicsbooks into movie continuity.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Really liked this. Watching Steve deal with the fallout of Secret Empire has been a treat. Very much looking forward to see where this heads.

    Also, as noted above, this is the best Sharon Carter since Brubaker. Delightful.



    So, this could totally be something that is going to be explored later, and I've just misread it. But it really felt like that was supposed to be Kobik. That Steve is feeling like he made a devil's bargain to get back in the fight, and Stevil was the consequence he couldn't see coming. The way it intercut with the monologue, with Steve talking about fighting so hard to be seen as different from the Nukes and the Red Skulls of the world. It came across as Steve talking about the risk he took "to not be the boy who stayed the boy" in WW2, and comparing that to the apparently deliberate choice he made to be restored by Kobik in Pleasant Hill. I think Steve is dealing with feeling like his selfishness, his need to be seen as something strong and noble (a boy who became a man) is what allowed the Supreme Commander to be born. That he is directly blaming himself for Hydra's takeover.

    Especially in light of Sharon's comment about how he needs to forgive himself.

    Which is a very Steve way to view the situation, when you get right down to it.
    I never saw this deal Steve had with Kobik in Pleasant Hill as a deal with the devil. If that is the case, it looks like our Steve Rogers can compromise himself if tempted by mortality, and that surprises me, because Steve consistently sacrifices his life to save others. What makes the Avengers Standoff situation that different? Unless it was an ageist thing, after all Cap was 93 for quite a while through Time Runs Out and a very angry old man right up to that last fight, where he tracked down Tony Stark to give Tony a beat down while the Earth was burning. Maybe that old man Steve Rogers had a very damaged psyche at 93 by the time he was in Standoff, so he wasn’t thinking straight anymore? I know at the end of life, many things go wrong with your decision making and the mistakes you make. Maybe it was just an old man mistake, and Sharon Carter could relate to that mindset?
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-05-2018 at 05:41 PM.

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear that it's meant to be Kobik but the OP expressed some doubt about the character's identity as there might not have been a previous panel that showed Kobik saying the exact words she does in Steve's memories here. But I think we're simply seeing things from a different angle than we have before.
    If this was a Kobik flashback it certainly fills in a lot of blanks Nick Spencer left in his plot. With Coates elaborating on that Steve/Kobik wish fulfilment moment, I am grateful for his doing that. Spencer certainly glossed over a lot of stuff so it’s good to see someone filling in the spaces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    ...Speaking of Kobik, I see that CBR has an article on the front page now asking "did Steve Rogers really strike a bargain with a sentient Cosmic Cube that would return him to life stronger than ever?" and I have to roll my eyes. I honestly don't think Coates was being very cryptic in this issue. Certainly not so much so that there'd be reason to think that there's some hidden meaning to the Kobik references here.

    When we see Kobik in this issue, it's about Steve remembering his desire to get back in the game and not sit on the sidelines as an old man. Had nothing to do with making him stronger than he previously was, or some special deal past restoring his youth that we don't know about. He equates his acceptance of Kobik's offer to the deal he made with the government to become Captain America in the first place and the current bargain he's making with T'Challa but it's just about the various deals he's made to be the man he is and keeping fighting the battles that he wants to fight - not "Oh, there's something more we don't know about!"
    I think someone suggested in this thread that Steve accepting Kobiks offer to return precipitated Steve Rogers nemesis to appear in the books, Stevil. Sort of like Sentry’s Void. And though I don’t think Steve consciously accepted Stevil return in his place, I think Steve Rogers feels responsible for Stevil existence just in the act of going along with with the deal with Kobik. I don’t for a minute think Steve Rogers knew Kobik was going to bring back a young Stevil. I think Steve Rogers thought a 3 year old (Kobik) meant to bring himself back, but didn’t count on an immature Cosmic Cube making that leap.
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-05-2018 at 05:58 PM.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CentralPower View Post
    We tend to hold "heroes" to a higher standard than others. Osborn blowing a green skinned alien's head off in "Dark Reign" is going to be worth some points towards rehabbing his image. Captain America pulling off a coup in "Secret Empire" is going to cost more points and credibility (of the sort that cannot be bought).



    I have only read issue 1, and flipped through issue 2. But, I notice that the page with Kobik's "make you strong" statement includes images of other characters that resisted Hydra (such as Fisk). That combined with Nuke being conflated with anti-Fa in issue one makes me curious less about what Coatse is planning than how he pulls it off.
    I think Norman Osborn was persecuted a very long time compliments of Ben Urich’s novel on the megalomaniac, so I think Stevil’s legacy on Steve Rogers persecution is going to last a long while too. I think that’s fair to give things balance.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    If Cap is fishing out Panther beads from the movie, then Marvel have made the transition complete and making the comicsbooks into movie continuity.
    Actually, the Kimoyo Beads were already incorporated into the Black Panther comics, also by Ta-Nehisi Coates, two years before the Black Panther movie. As for your observations on why Steve "bargained" with Kobik, the circumstances were that he was about to die from getting the crap beaten out of him by Crossbones, whom he could've defended himself against better if he still had the Super-Soldier Serum in his system. In shorter words, he took Kobik as the "only" chance he had to survive, if not win, his fight with Crossbones.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I never saw this deal Steve had with Kobik in Pleasant Hill as a deal with the devil.
    No, why would you? I'm not in any way saying it was. But that's how Steve seems to be reacting to it. He's treating it as though he had some moment of weakness, or selfishness. And that if only he could have just gone on being an old man Hydra would never have been able to take over America. It may not even be rational, strictly speaking, for Steve to feel this way. It's a very peculiar, and particular, kind of trauma, having such evil done not only in your name but with your face.

    Also, Steve almost seems to be aware that Supreme Leader Stevil is the product of the same motivations and drives that make him. That Steve himself, must, by definition, be capable of the same evils that were carried about by his replacement. Restored Steve, classic Captain America Steve, has an upbringing that shaped him and made him a hero. But Stevil wasn't reprogrammed on a personality level, he just had a different upbringing, a different history. He wasn't Mirror Universe Steve (if you're familiar with the Star Trek phenomenon), he wasn't evil twin Steve. He was, at least nominally, Steve Rogers. Same man, same core drives. Different past. Stevil fought for what he believed was right. He simply believed Hydra's fascism was the right thing. Steve has seen how his ideals can be twisted, corrupted. That has to have an impact.

    I'll be curious how deep Coates wants to take some of this stuff. There's a lot of room to explore Steve's sense of guilt, how much he blames himself for what has happened. There's also a lot of room to explore the trauma of your identity being stolen and misused. Maybe it will remain subtext, maybe it will be at the core of Coates' run. Too early to say. But so far, what has been presented has raised some fascinating questions in my mind, both in terms of how Steve is handling the Secret Empire fallout, and how people are reacting to Steve in light of same.

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