Red Hood and the Outlaws #25 Preview/Discussion

[G-Potion]

My godddd what an issue!! I spent like a minute on each panel. Will miss Soy, Gandini and Esposito so much.

spoilers:

Fight with Bruce was brutal. But Jason's comment on Joker probably helped fuel it to eleven. Not that it's untrue. I love that while Jason didn't save the HQ himself, his presence did wonder to calm his team down and allowed them to see a solution. I'm happy that Artemis promised to go after Bizarro so even if Biz might be in limbo for a while, we can still consider him under Artemis's care. That kiss at the end! From a non shipper myself, it was very satisfying. It could mean a little bit of everything from romantic feeling to guilt to goodbye kiss. And then there's the call back from their first meeting that's just too sweet. I'm excited for the solo arc but at the same time I can't wait till the day this team reunites because there's still so much potential in their story. Jason barely even fought back. And with Bruce going all "No more Red Hood", broke the helmet, rip the bat off, I hope the new costume will now be judged with more consideration for the context of the story. That comic Ma Gunn was reading is darn sad despite the artwork. And Solitaire is whom we all suspected to be. His relationship with Ma Gunn is more surprising however. Also the "Fate" she deserves. I'm glad Lobdell hasn't actually forgotten about her, and there's a poetic quality in her conclusion. Paid for her sin instead of being saved, whether Bizarro meant to or not. Roy!!! Would be devastated if his rumored fate turns out to be true.

end of spoilers

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Solid issue but I feel it had too much stuff going on for its own good. The explanation for Bizarro and Artemis leaving the team felt forced, obviously mandated for editorial that failed to read organic. In comparison, the break up of the original Outlaws was better written. I've seen a lot of people complaining about Batman's actions but I feel they're in line with his character since just like Jason, Bruce has shown that tendency of letting his emotions get the best of him masny times in the past. It is still overreacting but at least is acknowledged within the story. The fate of Ma Gunn felt unnecessarily harsh so I hope she comes back soon because it would be a complete waste of an interesting character otherwise, as for the reveal, it is contrived and doesn't quite fit with what we knew of Ma Gunn but that's just nitpicking, if followed through it will finally allow Jason to build his own supporting cast. The cameo at the end though? That was the best part of the issue by a country mile. It sucks that HIC will derail everything.

Soy and Gandini top themselves with their work, becoming the definitive artistic team for Jason and his Outlaws. Woods will have some very big shoes to fill.

[Aioros22]

This was hardly a fight. Bruce is too pissed and Jason is more interested in stopping the HQ falling in the city and his teammates. That snark about Joker is not only usually correct it only pissed him more.

In fact the snark merits some meta-commentary. If you place all his modern fights with the Joker and the ones Bruce`s had with Dick and Jason I believe you can make the comment that he indeed hits his sons harder than he generally does Joker or at least that is what it feels like. There`s exceptions like the Barr/Davis Detective run, DITF or Hush but a good deal of it is a continuity choice from the part of the writer/editor and in others he just wasn`t there - besides, what counts for Rebirth or not is a continuing process.

The interesting bit, character-wise is wether within the structure of the story, a part of him welcomes the punches because that`s how he tends to make it even or knowing how it will have to end (cue to the intro). It is about fathers, after all.

But okay Brucie, you get 1-2 now.

Best part is the final page and Gunn`s reveal. Solitaire is - you-know-who - where is my cookie?

I enjoy the resolution but at first I feel Bizarro should have at least tried to stop the HQ`s fall but I guess his own idea was far more effective and helps to highlight that Bizarro even having regressed isn`t stupid, which is a cool feature.

[Aioros22]

So. Gunn's grandaugther is Jason's..sister? I noticed Solitaire's face sort of resembles Jason under Soy's pencils too. Sort of goes with the reveal.

His powers keep being extraordinarly vague. We still have to see much of a limit and Temi's goodbye to Jay sort of hints that the facility escape could have really been him.

[Aioros22]

I have to enjoy how Roy in a short span of months has made two bats his Achilles.

Artemis is already showing up in Wonder Woman this month, the Bow of Ra and mentions of her RATHO introduction included. Hopefully we won`t take long to find her journey to/with Bizarro again, after the portal. It still likely happening in RATHO after the coming solo arcs.

[Drakeon]

I just started reading this book with #23. Can someone explain how Ma ended up in the bottle?

[G-Potion]

The interesting bit, character-wise is wether within the structure of the story, a part of him welcomes the punches because that`s how he tends to make it even or knowing how it will have to end (cue to the intro). It is about fathers, after all.

I feel in the first fight Jason was caught off-guard and his mind was not in it but in the second, because he just lost everything and even though he threw the first punch (kick?), he completely, willingly took more damage from Bruce.

[G-Potion]

I just started reading this book with #23. Can someone explain how Ma ended up in the bottle?

Smart Bizarro trapped her in there to prevent her from revealing information that might hurt Jason.

[Aioros22]

I feel in the first fight Jason was caught off-guard and his mind was not in it but in the second, because he just lost everything and even though he threw the first punch (kick?), he completely, willingly took more damage from Bruce.

Yeah in the double spread he was shooting everywhere but the actual body.

Wouldn't happen with a crowbar kiss, man.

[G-Potion]

I'm not really angry about Bruce, or how Bruce was written. Like Dark said, he's overreacting. And he's probably in pain too, with the prospect of losing his son, because that promise has been what held them together and now it's broken. Also as Aioros said, the Joker comment is once again a tool Lobdell used to break the fourth wall. Didn't we all comment on, or at least think the same thought every time Batman let Joker get away with barely a tap? And raged against whenever he hurt his own family? The amount of fanfics on this theme is considerable, especially when it comes to Jason, classic hurt/comfort trope. Let's weather through the hurt part, the comfort will be worth it. Patience.

[Rise]

I don't know about this. Bruce really crossed the line and there's no excuse for his actions.

I'm not bothered or sad over what happened, but I wouldn't be ok if Bruce once again easily forgiven without him even atoning. The guy is one of my favourites, but he needs to face consequences for his behaviour.

[Zaresh]

I lost my post.
Again.

I'll be short.
This issue was awesome. A really good end to this whole story: good writing, good art, fast pacing, with new openings, and a sense of closure.

I did hate Bruce, but it kind of was the point: show how Bruce can be such a brute when he's emotional. And how little of the level headed, vold hero is there when he's going blind for whatever he things is the thing to do. He's flawed, and he's wrong in how he deals with Jason.

Jason, someone he should give at least the chance to talk and explain himself. The one he unnecessary beats to a pulp because he was merely running away and staying still for the whole fight. Who also did something wrong, by the way. But this is UtH all over again: Bruce cames across as such an unsympathetic hero that the reader hardly can side with him here. Which, again, makes total sense because this is Jason's team book.

I think Ma Gunn is in the literal Limbo right now: she's reading the issues of a never-to-be run of the Outlaws after all. And WIllis powers are honestly interesting now. Makes for a great anti-villain, even. And Roy making a really nice entrance!

Man, this reminds me so much of the X-Men books from long ago, with all this slight over-the-top mystery and drama, and the action too. But I guess it makes sense.

Now, please, post, don't die on me.
Edited: It worked!
Edited again: I'm guessing Faye is Jason's cousin.

[G-Potion]

I don't know about this. Bruce really crossed the line and there's no excuse for his actions.

I'm not bothered or sad over what happened, but I wouldn't be ok if Bruce once again easily forgiven without him even atoning. The guy is one of my favourites, but he needs to face consequences for his behaviour.

I still agree with you though. I'm fine because I think it's actually in character for Bruce to act irrationally when it comes to Jason. But yes, it doesn't excuse it, and I'd like him to realize how badly he messed up here.

[JasonTodd428]

What a kick in the feels. Man oh man. I can't even being to say how much I enjoyed this issue though I did feel that Bruce was a bit to brutal here IMO especially after basically giving Batwoman a slap on the wrist for killing Clayface and all's well again. Now I really hate Bruce. What a hypocrite.

My godddd what an issue!! I spent like a minute on each panel. Will miss Soy, Gandini and Esposito so much.

spoilers:

Jason barely even fought back. And with Bruce going all "No more Red Hood", broke the helmet, rip the bat off, I hope the new costume will now be judged with more consideration for the context of the story.

end of spoilers

Just because context has been given, and damned good context I might add, doesn't mean that my problems with the costume and especially his use of a crowbar are going to vanish. My problem is with the artistic rendering of the costume not the costume itself and that's not likely to change. Will I get used to seeing the costume?: Sure but I doubt I'll be happy about the new artist however much he might fit for this new direction. His artist style just isn't one I care for. Just personal taste. As for the crowbar I will never, ever be happy about him using it. It to over the top for me personally. I like the katana much better to be honest. Again that's just personal taste.

[thebluefeline]

I don't know about this. Bruce really crossed the line and there's no excuse for his actions.

I'm not bothered or sad over what happened, but I wouldn't be ok if Bruce once again easily forgiven without him even atoning. The guy is one of my favourites, but he needs to face consequences for his behaviour.

Definitely. That panel of him dragging Jason by his helmet before Roy comes in was just ridiculous. Maybe it's a tie-in for his behavior towards Mr. Freeze in Tom King's run but he really needs to get his act together. I get he's overreacting towards everything right now but he still shouldn't be let of the hook easily.