Superfoes who need a push

[jetengine]

Supermans Rogues gallery (outside of the big few famous ones) is....awkward to say the least. Who do you think needs a push whether it be a revision or merely a better/new writer ?

[RepHope]

I think three things need to happen.
1. Stop making Lex responsible for everything that goes on. Lex is more overused than Joker these days. He needs to be shelved or left to Snyder for a while.
2. Stop tying everything to Kryptonite or Red Sun radiation. Metallo should be able to hurt Supes with Metal 0 alone. Every Metallo vs. Supes fight is boring because Supes can’t tade fists with him without passing out.
3. Evolve villain motivations beyond “RAAAGH I hate Superman!”, Scarecrow has his experiments with fear, Darkstars want to enforce lethal justice, give Supes villains a goal beyond just wanting Supes dead.

I think Metallo and Parasite desperately need to be the focus of their own arcs. They are long standing Rogues but no one ever FOCUSES on them, they’re just lackies for Luthor or KO’d at the start of an arc focusing on someone else. Gleason’s Parasite looked legitimately intimidating, and I’d love to see Gleason draw a Parasite arc. Metallo’s JL Action look is my personal favorite, he’s not a literal Terminator there.

Otherwise I don’t really see a problem with his Rogues. He’s got a decent starting core with Lex, Metallo, Parasite, Manchester Black, Brainiac, Toyman, Bizarro, Mxy and Zod. I’d also advocate using Blanque, Vyndx, and Nimrod since those guys don’t need Kryptonite to hurt Supes. Bendis’ Invisable Mafia is a great idea, it angers me when I see other writers flanderize Metropolis as a utopian city where nothing ever goes wrong and there’s no crime. The Invisable Mafia and Red Cloud are helping rebuild Metropolis’ underground which has sucked since Rucka stole Intergang for Gotham.

[Kuwagaton]

I think the thing is, in coming to Superman from another character (this was my perspective, too, in coming from mostly Marvel) is understanding that Superman's powers, attitude, and "storytelling engine" make it so that he's best with a few relatively nonlethal foes, a few big monsters that must be temporarily stopped, and a host of creative opponents. Writers have to think of ways to challenge him and not wheel out the same old goons with little explanation as to why Superman can't stop them from causing problems in the future. I mean the Joker is super popular, but that sort of character doesn't make sense for Superman, and really it's pretty revolting.

That said, the original Black Zero was clearly meant for something more.

[RepHope]

I think the thing is, in coming to Superman from another character (this was my perspective, too, in coming from mostly Marvel) is understanding that Superman's powers, attitude, and "storytelling engine" make it so that he's best with a few relatively nonlethal foes, a few big monsters that must be temporarily stopped, and a host of creative opponents. Writers have to think of ways to challenge him and not wheel out the same old goons with little explanation as to why Superman can't stop them from causing problems in the future. I mean the Joker is super popular, but that sort of character doesn't make sense for Superman, and really it's pretty revolting.

That said, the original Black Zero was clearly meant for something more.

I mean yeah is that not the standard for most Rogues? Most of Batman’s guys would get destroyed in a straight up fist fight bar Ra’s, Bane, And sometimes Joker. Same with Spider-Man, Mysterio relies on tricks and illusions not fisticuffs. This new “Red Cloud” villain is supposed to be immune to Supes’ powers which should prove interesting. I’ve also held the belief that Zod and Doomsday should flat out not lose a battle of raw strength to Supes ever. Doomsday should be stronger and tougher while Zod should be a better fighter.

[Kuwagaton]

Honestly, I've never been too high on any Zod. In a given story I'd take almost any other Zoner, as they don't usually have that forced sense of importance and all those redundant jokes about kneeling.

But when I say creative I don't mean a chameleon to fight a Spider-Man or a guy who freezes stuff because Flash is fast, or an unathletic penguin because Batman is a weightlifting ninja. More like... Dr. Phoenix, a mad scientist who is actually a sleepwalking Abominable Snowman. Using means other than fisticuffs is kinda just scratching the surface for the dozens and dozens of villains they throw at Superman, so is that whole "twisted image" thing. I think it gets old and writers get complacent, which is why I prefer Superman to other characters.

Mxy to me is the perfect example of a recurring villain, I guess my second favorite after Brainiac(s), because he is so powerful and tricky, but he isn't deadly so Superman isn't out to end him. But I dunno if he's low enough on the totem that I'd say he needs a better push.

So far I think Bendis is actually doing well on Zaar but might actually have to use him less. Red Could is really interesting.

[RepHope]

Honestly, I've never been too high on any Zod. In a given story I'd take almost any other Zoner, as they don't usually have that forced sense of importance and all those redundant jokes about kneeling.

But when I say creative I don't mean a chameleon to fight a Spider-Man or a guy who freezes stuff because Flash is fast, or an unathletic penguin because Batman is a weightlifting ninja. More like... Dr. Phoenix, a mad scientist who is actually a sleepwalking Abominable Snowman. Using means other than fisticuffs is kinda just scratching the surface for the dozens and dozens of villains they throw at Superman, so is that whole "twisted image" thing. I think it gets old and writers get complacent, which is why I prefer Superman to other characters.

Mxy to me is the perfect example of a recurring villain, I guess my second favorite after Brainiac(s), because he is so powerful and tricky, but he isn't deadly so Superman isn't out to end him. But I dunno if he's low enough on the totem that I'd say he needs a better push.

So far I think Bendis is actually doing well on Zaar but might actually have to use him less. Red Could is really interesting.

Even though I liked Jurgens giving Zod his own evil Superfamily, the constant “KNEELS” got old after a while. I like how Krypton really built up to him saying the classic line, rather than running it into the ground. Oddly enough when Jurgens has him interacting with other members of the Revenge Squad it was great, I loved him sucker punching Mongul. It was just the Kal/Zod interactions I didn’t like.

I’ve enjoyed how Venditti has been writing him over in Hal N Pals. I don’t think he’s said “Kneel” yet, he’s been written as a more “Ra’s” like figure which I’ve always been interested in seeing.

[daBronzeBomma]

Whilst I think each of the Super Rogues could always use better or more interesting characterizations, it's a lot easier if we focus on who needs more exposure AND better characterization.

Tier 1 - Lex Luthor : in a class all by himself. Currently, like the Joker in the Batverse, overexposed in the Superverse.

Tier 2: Brainiac, Zod, Doomsday : each one getting a big boost in non-comic venues like the tv show KRYPTON and THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN animated movie.

Tier 3: Bizarro: never a proper villain, definitely more like Jason Todd in the Batverse now, and is appearing in a monthly book RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS.

Tier 4: Mxy: the 5th dimensional imp is the start of where the Super Rogues really need more exposure.

Tier 6: Metallo/Cyborg Superman, Parasite, Livewire, Faora/Ursa, Mercy/Lena : lots of untapped potential here. Stop making them just henches (gender- neutral term for both henchmen and henchwomen) for other Super Rogues.

Tier 7: Mongul: He needs to be fully reclaimed by the Superverse and given the position that Darkseid wrongly holds (yes, I've done a complete 180 on this topic, I'll explain later). He should be the Superverse's resident evil overlord and the answer to Ras al Ghul in the Batverse and Ares in the Wonderverse.

Tier 8: Manchester Black, Maxima, Dominus: yeah, I still think more can be done with them.

Tier 9: Toyman, Prankster: Reposition both as more Jon and Lois' personal enemies (respectively). Clark is wayyyy beyond either of their pay grade directly.

Tier 10: Everyone else, like Terra-Man, Galactic Golem, Intergang (without Darkseid at all), who have been almost swallowed up by the others.

Note I did not include any Fourth Worlders on purpose.

But yeah, the further down the tiers you go, the more these Super Villains need your help, DC.

[Kuwagaton]

I'd switch the tier for Mxy and Bizarro. Mxy is only second to Lex when it comes to historically prolific villains, and despite being a gag character (with an installed guarantee to reoccur) his last two storylines in these last five years were able to display enough dramatic potential to make him more popular. Bizarro meanwhile is so all over the place that making him a Superman villain is kinda limiting.

Cyborg Superman might also be the same tier. Interesting problem is that he's been Jurgens exclusive this whole time so it's maybe unclear if someone else would do well or miss the mark.

But yeah, I forgot how much I'd like to see Faora used as her own character. Thankfully she's free of Zod due to Ursa.

[Ascended]

I think a lot of Clark's villains are in fairly decent shape, honestly. Even Myx has had some really great showings over the last ten years.

Metallo, Parasite, and Mongul are the villains I think need more focus. Metallo and Parasite are always either just lackeys for other villains or the "filler fight" villain writers use to get the requisite action sequence into an issue. And Mongul is just a watered down, less interesting and intimidating Darkseid.

Metallo started the New52 off pretty well, I thought. He was just a lackey for other characters to manipulate, but his awareness of that and his struggles with being used by everyone from Brainiac to Lois made him sympathetic and interesting. Sadly all that seems to have fallen by the wayside and he's back to being a generic, boring villain with a one-note gimmick.

Parasite.....I dunno if I've ever actually read a story that did him justice. I feel like he'd be perfect for a "horror genre monster" kind of tale but typically he just seems like another "Metallo" tier character; he's got a cheap gimmick meant to counter Clark's powers and that's about it.

Mongul would be great, if it wasn't for the fact that he is a pale shadow of Darkseid. Personally, I champion the idea of leaning into that and making it work to Mongul's benefit by making Mongul a worshiper of the Anti-God. Say that Mongul has modeled his life and War World after his god, and his greatest hope is to gain Darkseid's notice. Sure, it's just a cheap remix of Thanos, but.....Mongul is a cheap remix of Thanos already, who's a cheap remix of Darkseid, so why not spin that to the villain's benefit? I think that would take the painful similarities between Mongul and Darkseid and make it actually work for the character, rather than being a hindrance.

I think one of the bigger issues Clark has right now is that several of his foes are being elevated to "League threat" status. We're starting to see some of Clark's biggest foes, like Brainiac and Lex, used as universe-wide threats for the League, rather than threats that Clark tackles on his own. On one hand, that's pretty great because it shows how powerful and capable Clark is; a League-worthy threat that has the whole team scrambling is just one of Clark's many villains. It says a lot about Superman. But on the other hand, it means these villains aren't being used in Clark's own titles as often.

[jetengine]

I feel like Metallo needs some character built into him and liked some of the ideas thrown around in the N52. I'd make him Rick Flaggs predecessor myself whom 'dies' on a mission but Waller salvages his brain for the Metallo project which is eventually activated after Supes is mindcontrolled into a rampage. He then effectively becomes the Governments Anti Supes weapon, more loyal then Captain Atom and more Controllable then Major Force, not that that stops him from going on unsanctioned 'Kill Superman' missions. Maybe even have him pop up on SS sometimes

Parasite needs a character driven mini-series. Make it like the recent Carnage one which was essentially 'The Thing/Horror movie in a coal mine'. Parasite is stuck with a team of dudes and is picking them off one by one

[RepHope]

I'd switch the tier for Mxy and Bizarro. Mxy is only second to Lex when it comes to historically prolific villains, and despite being a gag character (with an installed guarantee to reoccur) his last two storylines in these last five years were able to display enough dramatic potential to make him more popular. Bizarro meanwhile is so all over the place that making him a Superman villain is kinda limiting.

Cyborg Superman might also be the same tier. Interesting problem is that he's been Jurgens exclusive this whole time so it's maybe unclear if someone else would do well or miss the mark.

But yeah, I forgot how much I'd like to see Faora used as her own character. Thankfully she's free of Zod due to Ursa.

I’m not really sure there’s anything left to do with Henshaw at this point. AC 999 pretty much ended his story on about the highest note I thought it could end. Obviously Jurgens is using him for the GLs but I don’t really think there’s any reason to use him as a Superman villain. Zod or Bizarro have the whole “Evil Superman” covered. Metallo has the whole cyborg/tech manipulation covered. I just don’t think Henshaw has any real use outside of Reign.

I feel like Metallo needs some character built into him and liked some of the ideas thrown around in the N52. I'd make him Rick Flaggs predecessor myself whom 'dies' on a mission but Waller salvages his brain for the Metallo project which is eventually activated after Supes is mindcontrolled into a rampage. He then effectively becomes the Governments Anti Supes weapon, more loyal then Captain Atom and more Controllable then Major Force, not that that stops him from going on unsanctioned 'Kill Superman' missions. Maybe even have him pop up on SS sometimes

Parasite needs a character driven mini-series. Make it like the recent Carnage one which was essentially 'The Thing/Horror movie in a coal mine'. Parasite is stuck with a team of dudes and is picking them off one by one

I would LOVE to see Parasite in a more horror-esque arc. His design screams “body horror”, and Gleason made him look actually intimidating in the brief cameo he had in AC 1001. Both Metallo and Parasite need some scenes where we really get to see just how powerful they really are. I want to see Metallo slaughtering people like that Darth Vader scene in Rogue One, where he’s just utterly decimating people. Parasite picking people off like the Thing and then wearing their shape would be the perfect opportunity for Supes to use his brains to beat him.

[LifeIsILL]

Titano

Becuase DC always seem to do well with ape villains.

[godisawesome]

I’m not really sure there’s anything left to do with Henshaw at this point. AC 999 pretty much ended his story on about the highest note I thought it could end. Obviously Jurgens is using him for the GLs but I don’t really think there’s any reason to use him as a Superman villain. Zod or Bizarro have the whole “Evil Superman” covered. Metallo has the whole cyborg/tech manipulation covered. I just don’t think Henshaw has any real use outside of Reign.

I would LOVE to see Parasite in a more horror-esque arc. His design screams “body horror”, and Gleason made him look actually intimidating in the brief cameo he had in AC 1001. Both Metallo and Parasite need some scenes where we really get to see just how powerful they really are. I want to see Metallo slaughtering people like that Darth Vader scene in Rogue One, where he’s just utterly decimating people. Parasite picking people off like the Thing and then wearing their shape would be the perfect opportunity for Supes to use his brains to beat him.

My buddy and I are, for fun, kind of pitching each other redesigns and TV arc ideas for Superman. Parasite immediately jumped out to me as the kind of villain who could be either a henchman or big bad; the main thing would be to feed him the kind of masterminds or disciplined criminals to make him a sharper and more creative foe. And you're dead right on the body horror idea. My buddy is still working on his redesign, but I made one for a "young" Parasite who's only just started his mutation (forgive me for my poor skills):image.jpg

The other big one that occurs to me of Superman's old main villains, though perhaps not in a traditional "opposed to Superman" way; I honestly think that Prankster would make a great villain for a reinvigorated Jimmy Olsen. Embrace Jimmy's old crazy adventures and justify them with Metropolis's little sci-if nooks and crannies like Apokilips tech, Brainiac virus, Project Cadmus creatures. And Prankster is his antagonist, an Internet personality turned supervillain using those things to wreak havoc.

[RepHope]

I liked what Johns did with Prankster, having him hire himself out for the other villains as a distraction for Supes. I also like the idea of Parasite acquiring the skills and talents of non-powered people he feeds on. So if he drained a skilled tactician he’d acquire that ability for himself.

[Kuwagaton]

I’m not really sure there’s anything left to do with Henshaw at this point. AC 999 pretty much ended his story on about the highest note I thought it could end. Obviously Jurgens is using him for the GLs but I don’t really think there’s any reason to use him as a Superman villain. Zod or Bizarro have the whole “Evil Superman” covered. Metallo has the whole cyborg/tech manipulation covered. I just don’t think Henshaw has any real use outside of Reign.

Henshaw is actually the great technological enemy, given that he's a living computer program. He's highly intelligent, seriously nuts, and completely immortal due to forming a new bodies out of scavenged technology with Kryptonian DNA to boot. He also tends to manipulate the likes of Metallo, or even Skynet on one occasion. The upside to being a younger character is that he's been portrayed consistently when you consider Lex and Brainiac. Although I agree that after #999, I'm not sure where to go with him.