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  1. #211
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbrklyn View Post
    that is dismissive, FWIW
    Taking a quote out of context and then negatively commenting is dismissive. I posted two long and detailed thoughts on why I said that and it wasn’t pointed at the individual it was pointed at a large number of people that always complain when they see a cut and paste, even though people have been cutting and pasting since paper was invented.

    Call it an intervention. Some people get upset about a technique used in comics, and yet with a little bit of context they don’t need to be upset. Instead they could be smiling and enjoying the technique. If the art repeat is blatantly time and money saving people might have a point, but usually the artist has made a choice to repeat a panel based on their craft and their knowledge of how visual storytelling works.

    There are good reasons to use the repeat panel here. If it was just deleted and voiceover used, it wouldn’t have worked as well or told the story as effectively. If the newsreader had changed every panel it would have drawn our eye and distracted from the story. Part of the story would have been about the newsreader herself, because humans responded to face cues readily. Visual story-telling is a compromise crafted and honed by experience.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-17-2018 at 02:26 AM.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    It's my opinion the variants didn't help with the pricing. How many different variants were there? 20? If we assume the rate Marvel paid for the art was that at least that for a page, we saw 5.99 going towards a book covering a lot more paid for pages than any of us saw in any single copy.. I'd also imagine that the rate for covers was at least that for the pages Sara Pichelli or Simone Bianchi got.

    Was the book worth $5.99? Maybe. Sandman Universe #1 came out the same week, was also a 48 pg book with multiple variant covers but was $4.99 without an included digital copy. The dollar difference for the digital copy has been a Marvel (and DC) trait for years. Not having page rates or cover rates and not seeing publication numbers for each, I can't accuse marvel of price gouging, although, the huge sales numbers of the FF issue certainly was able to cover and bury the costs of creative help.

    Should Marvel have skipped the Doom story and gone with a 40 pg book, selling it for $4.99 as they do for their other 40 pg books? I would have rather have seen that, but for the package they provided, the pricing was in line with other books they and DC have done.
    Imo if you want to get people on board for a title that might not usually have picked it up, sell it at a standard cost

    I can't imagine very many none ff fans, or those who just collect issue 1s without much care for the content, would grab this at that price point just to see if they like the ff

    Now I accept it had plenty pages, but for me the doom and impossible man story were just padding to what the book is supposed to be about

    It no question will do good numbers, but how many new readers have jumped on at that price point, or will stick around, when the event we were teased didn't even happen

    7 dollars isn't cheap if you want new people to take a punt on the title

  3. #213
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    7 dollars isn't cheap if you want new people to take a punt on the title
    Just maybe Marvel are pragmatic. They would have a better idea than us and they probably know that new readers in the direct market are like hen’s teeth. In that context they are probably thinking most new readers will be reading this in trade and they may even have encouraged Slott to take his time with the groundwork of his story.

    To the more general point that many including myself have made, that this feels like a Two-in-One tale, I have been giving that some thought.

    Slott has every right to tell his story independently of Two-in-One. His positioning of the characters is not the same as that in Two-in-One and this is the primary book. Let’s let him tell his story and then see how Two-in-One plays out before we judge the relationship between them, but also keep in mind Two-in-One needs to reflect this book, not the other way around.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Just maybe Marvel are pragmatic. They would have a better idea than us and they probably know that new readers in the direct market are like hen’s teeth. In that context they are probably thinking most new readers will be reading this in trade and they may even have encouraged Slott to take his time with the groundwork of his story.

    To the more general point that many including myself have made, that this feels like a Two-in-One tale, I have been giving that some thought.

    Slott has every right to tell his story independently of Two-in-One. His positioning of the characters is not the same as that in Two-in-One and this is the primary book. Let’s let him tell his story and then see how Two-in-One plays out before we judge the relationship between them, but also keep in mind Two-in-One needs to reflect this book, not the other way around.
    fair points about the 2 books relationship

    I question how good trades are at attracting brand new readers to characters, I think the price point puts them off unless they are already into comics and I was thinking of totally brand new readers

    I find marvel trades tend to be the most expensive and rarely buy them unless it's a uk reprint

    but of course I find marvel are a little over priced generally

    I find the floppy quality of paper and even the trades feel a little more flimsy than other publishers, especially some of the smaller press

    Heck some publishers sell card stock covers for the same price as a standard marvel

    But I appreciate that Marvel will see themselves as the experts

  5. #215
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    I really do think that by going high for the price of the relaunch, Marvel sets themselves up for the reader quite naturally expecting a lot of "bang" for their 6 bucks. I liked the issue but I wasn't exactly over the moon about it. As someone that has kept up with Marvel Two in One and Infamous Iron Man and read the Fantastic Four when Wyatt actually was part of the book more often, there was a lot of going over old ground here for me.

    What was a much more successful launch of a new creative team was the 9 cent issue for Fantastic Four #60 (vol 3) when Waid and Wieringo made their debut. BTW, I love it when a site hasn't cut loose of their past history of articles. That provided a big reason for fans to try it out right there.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I really do think that by going high for the price of the relaunch, Marvel sets themselves up for the reader quite naturally expecting a lot of "bang" for their 6 bucks. I liked the issue but I wasn't exactly over the moon about it. As someone that has kept up with Marvel Two in One and Infamous Iron Man and read the Fantastic Four when Wyatt actually was part of the book more often, there was a lot of going over old ground here for me.

    What was a much more successful launch of a new creative team was the 9 cent issue for Fantastic Four #60 (vol 3) when Waid and Wieringo made their debut. BTW, I love it when a site hasn't cut loose of their past history of articles. That provided a big reason for fans to try it out right there.
    Charge more of me, I expect more of them

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    Charge more of me, I expect more of them
    Agreed. I think they should have given it a special introductory price and maybe gone down to $1.99 and bite the bullet. I liked the Doom story but that could have come later. It could even have perhaps been covered in Iron Man since it essentially puts close to the Infamous Iron Man era. IMO Victor has more unfinished business with Tony that could have been brought up.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Agreed. I think they should have given it a special introductory price and maybe gone down to $1.99 and bite the bullet. I liked the Doom story but that could have come later. It could even have perhaps been covered in Iron Man since it essentially puts close to the Infamous Iron Man era. IMO Victor has more unfinished business with Tony that could have been brought up.

    I can only imagine the good will it would generate to have sold a bumper book at normal price

    A bit like Dc rebirth

  9. #219
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    Finally read it, I thought it was just ok. Felt like a lot of nothing happened outside of the proposal. The only part I really enjoyed was the Reed/Sue convo and the art.
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nonetheless):
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  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I guess you don’t count somebody going through emotional issues as anything happening? That’s all well and good but for the rest of us quite a lot happened.
    It is diffuct when people assume they can talk for anyone other than themselves. Most people have enough troubles with that. There are always differing opinions about works of art, and Jackson Pollocks work will still sell for millions of dollars. As per the emotional issues, no, I don't need a $6 book about that and it has been beaten to death in 2:1. And even if you do that, it doesn't preclude a story line that moves forward. It is not a mutually exclusive proposition. I think history will bare out that this book was a flop and blunted the return of the title.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Taking a quote out of context and then negatively commenting is dismissive..

    Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I know there is no convincing the anti-repeat panel brigade
    Quote Originally Posted by mrbrklyn
    that is dismissive, FWIW
    That was dismissive of a whole class of others opinion and when I read something like that, it will stop me from reading the rest. There is no point in reading a post that starts with being dismissive of others opinions with a snide, and insulting comment. No one owes anyone else an audiance. If you insult my opinion, or even someone elses opinion, I will NOT read the rest of what you wrote.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    I can't imagine very many none ff fans, or those who just collect issue 1s without much care for the content, would grab this at that price point just to see if they like the ff
    No, obviously you are are right and they are targeting and exploiting previous FF fans longing for a continuation of their favorite book. No doubt they damaged their relaunch and hurt their chances for success in the long term.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I really do think that by going high for the price of the relaunch, Marvel sets themselves up for the reader quite naturally expecting a lot of "bang" for their 6 bucks.
    That is no doubt true, but even if they charged a buck, this book is a failure in storytelling.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    a song and the phrase "the way home is something you see with your heart".

    Yeah, what the heck was that about! This might be the only time the FF was existing in a parrellel universe with the world of Oz.... and the Oz movie was entirely too long as well. It cuts into the Thanksgiving meal.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    fair points about the 2 books relationship

    I question how good trades are at attracting brand new readers to characters, I think the price point puts them off unless they are already into comics and I was thinking of totally brand new readers

    I find marvel trades tend to be the most expensive and rarely buy them unless it's a uk reprint
    This is part of the discussion we are having in the Wallmart thread. It is a question on how to obtain new readership. Periodicals that are in the face of the general public has been the way that new readers are brought into titles. To my knowledge, there has never been a case where a graphic novel has been the source for new readership for a creation. It is always the other way around that periodicals spawn graphic novels and moves. It is two, OTOH that movies and novels can spawn comics. Price will always be part of the equation, but this revival has just been plainly exploitative. The fans wil spend the money, but Marvel has to deliver the goods, and they plainly failed here.

    Fortunately for them, and they are probably betting on this which is even more exploitative behavior on their part, the FF is well established with a motivated fan base and so they will probably get away with this for an issue if they bounce back quickly. But if they continue in this vein, they will lose their audience and folks just will stay off the book for a long period of time. This happened largely with the DC reboot, and with Star Trek. If the audience feels exploited and pandered to, eventually they tune you out and you've squandered a billion dollar asset.


    You would think that since they were putting out those $1 reprints that they would read them and learn what was working and what would not. John Byrne, Walter Simeonson, and and Marv Wolfman are still alive.

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