All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!(Part II)

[aja_christopher]

Oh no they had a walkout! The horror. Should I go look up those Clinton supporters who said nasty things about Obama and then didn't support him against McCain?

Except Obama won -- and it's telling that the crowd didn't boo her for suggesting they vote for Obama.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Controversial Opinions:

Bidden is running because he doesn't like these uppity progressives with their loud music and wants them to get off his lawn. He thinks Sanders should cut his hair and get a job.

The GOP would LOVE for someone like Harris or Booker to be the democratic nominee. These are watered down version of Clinton and Obama and they already know how to deal with them. They are frightened by Sanders because his actual policies poll well with their audience. It's why they spend so much time attacking AOC who has similar views...they are attacking Bernie by proxy.

Booker yes. Harris I'm not sure about. She could be good. She has issues, but she's not a complete hack like Booker either.

I think moreso they know that if they got Booker or Gillibrand in there, they would be dealing with politics as usual and would be able to strategize and win back the House and start gaining little victories again and all they'd have to really do is stonewall Gillibrand from any big victories. Basically the strategy they had with Obama (though I do think Obama's heart was in the right place).

People forget how much of a shitshow Bush was by the end. He was objectively worse than Trump in everything but tempremant. He had the economy crash on him, the Iraq War was at it's height of unpopularity, the administration was a world wide joke. Republicans wouldn't even acknowledge Bush throughout Obama's term. Then 8 years later they erased that sentiment and had the House, the Senate, were holding a Supreme Court seat hostage, and got the Presidency.

[aja_christopher]

At this point, it's really just not a good faith argument and that's what you need to bridge the divide. No Bernie supporter is going to back down and play nice when the same group of people who exhibited more egregious bad behavior take every opportunity they can to blame Bernie and his supporters for all their problems. Their the side that got the candidate they wanted. They are the side that simultaneously want to blame people they also want as allies as to why she didn't win. It's just not a genuine ask anymore.

I was there in 2016 Knight -- I wasn't a Clinton supporter, I was a moderate looking to stop Trump from becoming president.

And I can tell you from direct experience: Sanders' supporters were, and still are, far more "egregious" than any other political group I've encountered outside of Republicans.

[Tuck]

[I]"From Sydney to Seoul, Cape Town to New York, children skipped school en masse Friday to demand action on climate change"

It's more in the immediate sense of knowing you're not going to clear your friend's head jumping your bike off that ramp.


This does apply more to the science issue I mentioned though. Not sure what we'd need. Maybe something like a scientific version of the CBO.

[PaulBullion]

[aja_christopher]

Take a guess whose supporters were behind this campaign violence -- and it wasn't Trump supporters.



"That's not protesting, that's cutting someone's freedom of speech in a violent manner. Trump might be bad, but not letting a presidential candidate express his concerns with his supporters is straight up oppression."

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Except Obama won -- and it's telling that the crowd didn't boo her for suggesting they vote for Obama.

This is why I can't take you seriously. You are just deflecting.

1. Obama winning was about the strength of Obama. IT DOES NOTHING to diminish how poorly Clinton supporters came out for him. Which was in FACT worse than Bernie supporters when they came out for Hillary. You're dismissing the actual action because the outcome was different. That's not logical whatsoever and is exactly what I said in the post right above this one, a deflection.

2. Yes inevitabley Hillary stopped her campaign and started supporting Obama. 2 points here. ONE, this was well after the primary was decided and Hillary had no hope of winning and was threatening the possibility of usurping the nomination with Super Delegates. She was campaigned well after she had a real chance, something Bernie is constantly accused of Bernie of. The Obama campaign was begging her to stop and saying that they were seriously hurting his chances in a general (and yes that had a greater negative impact on Obama than the 2016 primary had on Clinton). Not to mention the sheer mudslinging and vitriol was significantly worse in 2016 and Hillary passively let things like early stage birtherism slide towards the end of her campaign. TWO, Bernie suspended his campaign as well and was flying all over the country supporting Clinton and she thanked him for it. And Bernie got more of his supporters to vote for Clinton than she did for Obama.

So yeah you can post a meaningless video out of context. But that's all it is and it ignores pretty much everything about what led up to that and how little of an impact it actually made. To put it bluntly that was both a deflection and an incredibly misleading post.

[Dalak]

It doesn't matter because people in this thread wipe it aside that Clinton's supporters lack of backing Obama was FAR MORE egregious than any negative impact Bernie supporters have simply because Obama was a much stronger candidate and was able to overcome a harsher internal Party challenge. And no I haven't seen you, or any of the other usual people in this thread condemn that the way some of them have been going at Bernie supporters. Usually it's been some conveniant excuse like "oh well McCain wasn't as bad as Trump so it's not applicable that our faction did that" or "Obama won anyways so we don't have to acknowledge the bad behavior there". So whose really the divisive side? The side that was worse in not supporting Democratic candidates and constantly shits on Bernie supporters or the Bernie supporters who bring up the actual shit that happened and their criticisms of the candidate?

At this point, it's really just not a good faith argument and that's what you need to bridge the divide. No Bernie supporter is going to back down and play nice when the same group of people who exhibited more egregious bad behavior take every opportunity they can to blame Bernie and his supporters for all their problems. Their the side that got the candidate they wanted. They are the side that simultaneously want to blame people they also want as allies as to why she didn't win. It's just not a genuine ask anymore.

That you use the words 'good faith argument' in the post in which you move goalposts, make up excuses that I've never seen (And directly contradict what I posted), and claim that Bernie's supporters are held up as the only reason Trump won is beyond laughable.

Yet you wonder why people think posters like you, who have been stirring up division since you started posting here, are the divisive ones. Especially since you claimed to have been lurking here through the whole lead up to the 2016 election, and only decided that your insightful political opinions about Sanders & Clinton must be posted months after it was over.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I was there in 2016 Knight -- I wasn't a Clinton supporter, I was a moderate looking to stop Trump from becoming president.

And I can tell you from direct experience: Sanders' supporters were, and still are, far more "egregious" than any other political group I've encountered outside of Republicans.

I was there in 2016 too. I can tell you first hand. Hillary supporters are a toxic group that did every underhanded thing they could to smear and label Bernie supporters because it suited their interest. You weren't the only person that was alive and politically active less than 3 years ago

[aja_christopher]

It's more in the immediate sense of knowing you're not going to clear your friend's head jumping your bike off that ramp.


This does apply more to the science issue I mentioned though. Not sure what we'd need. Maybe something like a scientific version of the CBO.

I 100% agree that science is most likely the best way forward -- unfortunately it seems that Republicans don't.

-----
"Trump once again requests deep cuts in U.S. science spending"

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019...ience-spending

I was there in 2016 too. I can tell you first hand. Hillary supporters are a toxic group that did every underhanded thing they could to smear and label Bernie supporters because it suited their interest. You weren't the only person that was alive and politically active less than 3 years ago

Except you're a Sanders supporter so you're subjectively -- and blatantly -- biased.

I don't subscribe to any candidate -- I just want Trump and the Republicans out of office.



Still waiting for you to explain how Clinton supporters were worse, yet we have plenty of video of Sanders supporters attacking -- sometimes physically -- everything in sight and giving voters, Republican or otherwise, plenty of concern with regards to the Democratic party as a whole.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

That you use the words 'good faith argument' in the post in which you move goalposts, make up excuses that I've never seen (And directly contradict what I posted), and claim that Bernie's supporters are held up as the only reason Trump won is beyond laughable.

Yet you wonder why people think posters like you, who have been stirring up division since you started posting here, are the divisive ones. Especially since you claimed to have been lurking here through the whole lead up to the 2016 election, and only decided that your insightful political opinions about Sanders & Clinton must be posted months after it was over.

I really could care less that the same 5 or so posters that constantly post in this thread and make the same bad faith arguments think I'm divisive.

Here's a newflash for you, not many people post in this thread. When they do, they get ganged up on and eventually leave the thread. And I've had multiple people PM me saying this thread was a lost cause and that they are sick of trying have discourse with people who call for unity and then take every chance they can to trash Bernie and his supporters. Do you really think that anything that you Paul or aja have posted regardling Bernie supporters really encouraged unity? Like in your heart do you believe you've done anything to foster unity among Democrats in this thread.

This is more of a "I can dish it, but I can't take it" sort of thing. And even this post.... no specifics. Yeah you don't blame Bernie supporters entirely for the loss, but you blame them. Even though most evidence suggest otherwise. Yeah your side is divisive. And your side isn't changing hearts and minds either. You're just running people off and only attracting people like Mets who get off on political debate regardless of whether it's useful. You guys can't move on either.

[Jack Dracula]

I was there in 2016 too. I can tell you first hand. Hillary supporters are a toxic group that did every underhanded thing they could to smear and label Bernie supporters because it suited their interest. You weren't the only person that was alive and politically active less than 3 years ago

I quite often see you using opinion and anecdotal evidence as fact and to prop up an argument for division among the party you claim to support. I don't think I'm the only one here who sometimes wonders if you have ulterior motives for spending so much time and energy in your efforts to convince Sanders supporters that they should be upset and resentful over what occurred in 2016.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I 100% agree that science is most likely the best way forward -- unfortunately it seems that Republicans don't.

-----
"Trump once again requests deep cuts in U.S. science spending"

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019...ience-spending



Except you're a Sanders supporter so you're subjectively -- and blatantly -- biased.

I don't subscribe to any candidate -- I just want Trump and the Republicans out of office.



Still waiting for you to explain how Clinton supporters were worse, yet we have plenty of video of Sanders supporters attacking -- sometimes physically -- everything in sight.

I'm biased, yet your post before this was one of the most contextless and actively misleading posts I've read in this thread from a self proclaimed Democrat (IE not one of the crazy Republicans who pop up from time to time) in quite a while.

Also it's interesting, you want Trump out of office, the most popular politician in the country for the last two years is running in your party, mostly votes with your party, and has a huge groundswell of supporters among both progressive left leaning Democrats who have been dissatisified and with the midwestern states that probably were the biggest weakness in the last election. Yet you constantly take a shot at him whevenevr you can, go after his appearance (but lets be real if someone here said something about Clinton's appearance it would defcon 5), and attack his supporters who mostly would vote for you.

Lets not even get into the fact that you make misleading arguments against him like he is bad with Civil Rights. Or that minorities don't support him (they do, it's just heavily concentrated in the youth, like most of his support).

But your primary priority is to beat Trump. Sure.

[Malvolio]

I really could care less that the same 5 or so posters that constantly post in this thread and make the same bad faith arguments think I'm divisive.

Here's a newflash for you, not many people post in this thread. When they do, they get ganged up on and eventually leave the thread. And I've had multiple people PM me saying this thread was a lost cause and that they are sick of trying have discourse with people who call for unity and then take every chance they can to trash Bernie and his supporters. Do you really think that anything that you Paul or aja have posted regardling Bernie supporters really encouraged unity? Like in your heart do you believe you've done anything to foster unity among Democrats in this thread.

This is more of a "I can dish it, but I can't take it" sort of thing. And even this post.... no specifics. Yeah you don't blame Bernie supporters entirely for the loss, but you blame them. Even though most evidence suggest otherwise. Yeah your side is divisive. And your side isn't changing hearts and minds either. You're just running people off and only attracting people like Mets who get off on political debate regardless of whether it's useful. You guys can't move on either.

So do you. You say you don't care and then proceed to ramble on for two more paragraphs. You obviously do care.

[aja_christopher]

This is more of a "I can dish it, but I can't take it" sort of thing.

Not at all -- I can take it no problem.

Tried to deal with it reasonably and diplomatically for years in fact -- but it's obvious at this point that's not how this works with Sanders supporters.

So -- again -- explain to me how Clinton's supporters were worse when Sanders' supporters and volunteers violently attacked Trump rallies, booed and threw dollar bills at Hillary Clinton, and shot up GOP congressmen?