All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!(Part II)

[GindyPosts]

Oh, joy. The "you're a horrible human being for voting third party" spiel is back.

Since I already confirmed myself as a leper for supporting Johnson, I'll wait until the outbursts die down.

[zinderel]

Oh, joy. The "you're a horrible human being for voting third party" spiel is back.

Since I already confirmed myself as a leper for supporting Johnson, I'll wait until the outbursts die down.

I'm sorry the truth stings, but unless a third party candidate has an ACTUAL chance of winning an election? Which Gary Johnson never in a million lifetimes did? Then you threw your vote away. You chose ideological purity over actual progress. Look, I'm guilty of it too. I've done it, I think most of us have. Clinging to our ideals is part of what makes us human! Choice is what makes us Americans. But learning when to put ideology aside and choose pragmatism is part of being an adult.

There is no world in which Gary Johnson would have won the presidency. I knew it, you knew it, he knew it. And now, we live in a world where voting for Gary Johnson and Jill Stein helped split the left enough that Trump won despite the BLATANT pandering to and inflaming of racism, homophobia, sexism, xenophobia, religious zealotry and general hatred. You voted with your heart, and that's admirable...Hell, that you voted at ALL is admirable, given the abysmal turnout in 2016. But if you refuse to learn, then we're just going to repeat this cycle again and again until there's no one left to have any ideology, because the Republicans will have succeeded in poisoning the planet beyond repair to make themselves rich.

If Gary Johnson had been the Democratic candidate, I would have voted for him. Just like I held my nose and voted for Hillary. Because the only other option was Trump, and anyone with eyes knew how that would turn out. I live in Oregon, which I knew was gonna go to Hillary no matter what. I could have voted for someone else, for whatever reason - purity, piss and vinegar, a whim - but I chose to put aside my PERSONAL feelings about Hillary and vote for the candidate who would do the least harm, and would allow for the progress Obama got rolling to continue.

She lost because of a myriad reasons: Russian interference, collusion with Trump, racism, sexism, homophobia, propaganda (from the right and the left), poor campaigning, low turnout among liberals/leftists/progressives and YES...protest votes and third party votes splintering the left. It wasn't any one of those things that got us where we are today, it was ALL of it. You need to accept that you are part of the problem and grow up and learn to make better choices, same as I did, same as everyone else does. You are not a leper for making a choice, but you will make yourself one if you stubbornly refuse to learn from the results of that choice.

Until then, the left will remain a splintered mess, and the Right will keep winning, despite themselves, because there is no unified front to prevent it.

[aja_christopher]

Oh, joy. The "you're a horrible human being for voting third party" spiel is back.

Pointing out statistical and mathematical political realities is not the same thing as saying that you are "horrible" for voting for a third-party or "progressive" candidate.

The vast majority of people are simply pointing out the political divisiveness in voting habits that leads to people like Trump taking office -- it's fine to disagree with said perspective, but pointing out the truth about how the "left" loses to people like Bush (Nader) and Trump (Stein) is not the same as accusing you of being a "horrible" individual.

I've repeatedly seen requests to do more than just talk about "moderates" vs "progressives" -- to talk about individual policies, regions, and candidates -- which is exactly what should be happening with regards to finding common ground on the "left" prior to midterm elections.

Just remember that when it comes time for the actual elections however, not every voter out there is going to appreciate the "leftist" agenda that is being put forth on these forums -- a "liberal" echo chamber is a poor testing ground for what might work out in the real world.

[zinderel]

The American voter is incapable of learning. The watched Bush and the GOP almost destroy this Country with an immoral, ill considered war and a near economic collapse and two years after getting rid of them they let the Koch Brothers convince them to put them back in power.

For me, getting people to recognize reality in terms of politics is like getting an Evangelical Christian to see the light of atheism. They have been raised in a culture where America is the greatest nation, period. Where America has made mistakes, but they aren't so bad as OTHER nations mistakes. Where capitalism will solve everything, and make you a millionaire if you 'work hard' and 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps'. Where freedom means doing whatever you want, damn the consequences. It is almost impossible to wake some people up from that stupor - my father still supports the Republican party, despite his distaste for Trump and Mister Mets still supports the Republican party despite the mountain of evidence of their corruption, for a few examples - but not everyone is lost.

Internet message boards aren't gonna be what wakes these people up. Talking to them face to face helps, especially after they are personally affected by the repurcussions of their support for the party of corruption and hatred. Being there to help them stand up when the Republican policies they foolishly supported or ignored rips the earth out from under them helps. Countering propaganda with fact helps. The fact is, those of us who ARE awake and aware enough to recognize reality are few and far between, and even most of us have blinders about one thing or another. It's a rough, thankless, sometimes seemingly hopeless task, dragging the world into the future, but if we give up, we may as well just roll over and die and let the world burn around us.

As of yet, I refuse to do that. I refuse to give up on the dream. We'll see what it gets me, in the end. Prolly nothing, but if I die seeing that we've made even a LITTLE progress? If I die seeing the world a LITTLE better than it was when I got here? I'll die happy. Or at least content...LOL.

[zinderel]

In a perfect world, America would have more than two political parties. In a perfect world, the ability to vote for whoever we like would be a privilege. Sadly, the world we live in gives us two parties to choose from, and occasional spoilers on either side. A few years ago, it was people like Ross Perot or Ralph Nader. More recently, it was Jill Stein and Gary Johnson. Until both Democrat and Republican parties split into 'conservative' and 'radical' wings at LEAST, we have only one choice to make: The Republican, or the Democrat. Period. It sucks, but...it's what we have to live with. ESPECIALLY in an election year. So until the parties split into multiple, viable parties, we are stuck.

Huh....maybe that's why we have an election every 2 years...Main terms and midterms. To make it nearly impossible for any new parties to have a chance to gather support and become viable during the off years?

[aja_christopher]

As of yet, I refuse to do that. I refuse to give up on the dream. We'll see what it gets me, in the end. Prolly nothing, but if I die seeing that we've made even a LITTLE progress? If I die seeing the world a LITTLE better than it was when I got here? I'll die happy. Or at least content...LOL.

We've already seen a black president under whom gay marriage was legalized -- I'd say that alone is historically impressive progress within our lifetime.

Sure we'll see lots more once the Republican party has to deal with the coming wave of "minority" voters who are getting fed up with this nonsense and learning that voting is the only way to put them to rest for good.

It's only a matter of time.

[zinderel]

edit: Damn double damn post, dammit...

[zinderel]

We've already seen a black president under whom gay marriage was legalized -- I'd say that alone is historically impressive progress within our lifetime.

Sure we'll see lots more once the Republican party deals with the coming wave of "minority" voters who are getting fed up with this nonsense.

It's only a matter of time.

Agreed. And that is what I am counting on, too. But I refuse to get complacent again. Obama made me complacent. I believed that the change we were promised was here. And the came Trump, and then came his supporters, and then...

Anyhow, I apologize for the post storm here. I had a discussion with friend of mine who is further left than I am, and it brought a lot of the things discussed here on this board to mind, good and bad. She is one of those who, bogglingly, says 'don't divide left' while declaring this or that liberal or whatever not left enough. And it's infuriating. But even SHE was able to put aside her personal feelings about corporatist Democrats enough to vote for Hillary, because she understood that even a little left is better than none at all.

[aja_christopher]

Agreed. And that is what I am counting on, too. But I refuse to get complacent again.

Well, those things didn't just happen because of Obama alone -- the voters made them happen with their votes but then dropped the ball (as usual) when midterms rolled around.

Probably should say it's a matter of time "and effort" rather than just time since none of these changes came easily -- we are benefiting from the efforts and the struggles of generations of Americans who came before us and it's now on us to pick up where they left off or risk losing everything they fought for.

[Tendrin]

I I live in Oregon, .

*Oregon fistbump*

[zinderel]

*Oregon fistbump*

Hey! *Fist bump back*

[zinderel]

oh my god, this double posting thing is so irritating...

[Kirby101]

oh my god, this double posting thing is so irritating...

just hit submit once. it will post. if it asks to leave page, do so.

[Tendrin]

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...-closures.html

ATLANTA — Civil rights advocates are objecting to a proposal to close about 75 percent of polling locations in a predominantly black south Georgia county.
The Randolph County elections board is scheduled to meet Thursday to discuss a proposal that would eliminate seven of nine polling locations in the county, according to the American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia. Included in the proposed closures is Cuthbert Middle School where nearly 97 percent of voters are black.

Gee, remind me what the big deal about Stacey Abrams is again? Seems /awfully/ convenient this plan would appear now.

I WONDER WHY THAT IS.

[4saken1]

This is more than just our voting system being unfriendly towards third parties. How many third Party candidates are stable? How many people would love to vote for a third party, look at the candidates and change their mind with the quickness based off merit alone? I actually want to see more major debates where the third parties are included just to prove a point. Hillary would have wiped the floor with Jill Stine or Gary Johnson.

Granted I do question the judgement of anyone who truly supported either candidate just based on their interviews, but there would have been at a percentage of those voters who would have seen just how shallow they were once put to the test.

Thing is, I stopped voting 3rd Party after Nader, mostly out of spite. Even though I live in California and know that I could vote Green without affecting any Democratic Presidential candidate's chance of winning, I choose not to since all they have ever done is help Republicans win. If they got Ranked Choice Voting put on the state ballot (which would also likely overturn our current Runoff Election system), I would definitely vote for it. If it passed, I would probably put whomever the Green candidate was as my first choice EVERY. FUCKING. TIME! If nothing else, if a significant portion of the liberal electorate did the same, they could probably easily reach the 5% threshold to be included in the debates. The fact that they haven't seemed to have tried getting the electoral process changed and instead keep trying the same tactic they have been for over 2 decades (shitting all over the Democratic Party), with abso-fucking-lutely zero increase in their turnout, tells me that they aren't really trying to win any national elections.

On another note, I think it would be hilarious to see a Green Party candidate win a Congressional seat in one of the states. Watching their base devour them the first time they had to compromise to get a bill passed would be FUCKING GOLDEN!