All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!(Part II)

[numberthirty]

I'll make this really simple for you, 30.

If you're a person on the left, who cares about things that people on the left claim to care about, then the last thing you want to do is continue to hold your breath and pout while actual fascists are running our government. If all of Trump's manifest awfulness can't get you to the polls to vote for anyone who will be in the way of his agenda because they're not left enough, you probably don't actually care enough about the things you claim to care about. O'Connor running a smidge more to the left, however, /may/ have helped, sure, but so would not running off to Greece or dancing around the Nancy Pelosi question. As always, a politician can not run too far out of step with their district.

The dude came close, however, despite those missteps.

And yeah, I'm arguing that protest-Green votes are awful, and show a clear lack of understanding of the moment we're in. And just being 'more progressive' isn't the way to thread every political needle, no matter how much people shout it.

O'Connor is talking about being pragmatic and kitchen table issues.

If the thing in blue actual matters to a voter, it doesn't sound like it matters much to O'Connor.

[ed2962]

Bill Clinton's "triangulation" said to voters, "Yes, I suck, but look at how awful those other guys are. You should be grateful for my small favors." And people bought into it and licked his hand.

This is a very good piece. Steve Bannon's points are especially interesting. Warning: rough language.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...al-crisis.html

Here's where Bannon is wrong...say the system is a scam...there many people who were fooled by Trump and voted for yet a another scammer. There are other people who were not fooled and voted for the scammer because they know how to make the scam work for them. Democrats are pussies? Ok, but don't pretend that the POTUS isn't.

[ed2962]

double post

[catbellysqueezer]

It's like when you keep buying a comic with your favorite character that has bad art and a bad story. You keep buying it in the desperate hope that one day it'll get better. Of course, if you keep buying it regardless, then the creators have no reason to change anything they are doing.

That's very true.

And also, can anyone think of a single great progressive change that didn't require loss? Did we get civil rights without people being hosed down, sometimes shot on the streets? Did we get women's suffrage without thousands of women enduring character assassinations?

So saying we have to win or we are just as bad as the evil people doesn't make a lot of sense.

Rosa Parks rationally should have chose to step off the bus and walk free to protest another day, instead of doing the radical thing and ending up in jail.

[Tendrin]

Yes, all good social movements start from the bottom up with acts of protest and civil disobedience. Militancy, too, is important. MLK would never have succeeded if it weren't for the fear of militant blacks like Malcolm X.

What I am arguing for is not 'vote for the less bad'. It is 'vote for the guy who will help us end children in cages'. We can do nothing about anything that's happening without a hand on the rudder of at least one branch of government. Run radicals where they can win. Run centrists where you need to. Run for everything, everywhere. Sometimes, you will need to pull the lever for politicians who don't align with you (but might align with a good chunk of your district) to win. That's all there is to it.

However, my criticism is reserved only for those who, when push comes to shove, choose their own righteousness and moral certainty over the act of voting in a way to help stop guys who want to strip legal immigrants of citizenship, lock children in cages, strip workers of their rights, want asbestos in your buildings, are stripping people of their voting rights, and on and on. If you claim to care about any of those things, then /vote for the guy who's agenda/ is also in agreement on stopping those things.

Then primary the fuck out of him next go around to show that he needs you in the general.

That's how the evangelicals did it. That's how progressives need to do it. That's how the system works.

People talk about voting for the lesser evil, but let's remember that the lesser evil still means that there is /less evil/.

[aja_christopher]

[catbellysqueezer]

But you're placing blame on the wrong people. There are plenty who failed here, our schools for failing to educate people about how government should work, our media for failing to inform the public when trying to be "neutral" and some of the voters themselves for being willfully ignorant of what conservatives actually want to do.

You're blaming people who won't vote for a candidate that doesn't support universal health care, or living wages, or actual environmental policy for the actions of racists.

[Tendrin]

But you're placing blame on the wrong people. There are plenty who failed here, our schools for failing to educate people about how government should work, our media for failing to inform the public when trying to be "neutral" and some of the voters themselves for being willfully ignorant of what conservatives actually want to do.

You're blaming people who won't vote for a candidate that doesn't support universal health care, or living wages, or actual environmental policy for the actions of racists.

I am not JUST blaming people who won't vote against Republicans. I am also blaming Republicans. I am capable of dishing out the blame to multiple locations. Democrats, Republicans, and people who won't oppose the latter until you give them exactly what they want, how they want it, while people are suffering tremendously under the policies of the guys who are running and wrecking stuff /right now/.

If you want universal health care, you're not going to get it while Republicans are dismantling the public infrastructure and creating, strategically, massive unsustainable debt as a weapon to prevent the left from achieving its policy goals later. They need to be stopped /now/, /while/ we build a progressive wing of the party. We can do both of those things, but not if people declare 'Well, unless you support MY policies, exactly, I don't care about the kids in cages or the destruction of families or the massive theft of the public treasure or the wrecking of the environment'. All of these things that are happening now would not be happening now if they had opposed Trump as much as they refused to vote because their policy goals weren't met in the exact.

[ZombieHavoc]

This Ohio election is why we should have zero faith in the electorate come 2020.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the democratic candidate is gonna be a center, establishment candidate.

So, i assume a bunch of people will be reckless and selfish again and refuse to vote for them.

And Trump then gets probably 2 more SCOTUS picks before 2024.

People, we are already irreparably fucked. America is done. And it is pretty much a guarantee the GOP is going to hold on to congress for a long, long time, and the White House too.

The two wings of the left are doing exactly what the GOP wants us to do.

[catbellysqueezer]

I volunteered at my local food bank for years, delivering food to elderly people who couldn't come pick it up. I delivered two 60 lb bags of canned food to an old man who lived in an apartment above a strip club. The apartment must never have been inspected because the floor was just exposed subfloor. He didn't even have a chair to sit and for weeks we tried to get a mattress for him to lay on.

Then one month we went to deliver the food and found him lying on the floor dead. He had no money because he got sick and couldn't afford treatment. He was my friend's uncle.

Now I don't want to live in a world where that happens, just like you don't want to live in a world where children are caged, and we can sit here arguing all day about which candidate supports which specific cause we fight for, or we can blame the people who are making us make that choice.

[Kirby101]

People think Ohio 12 results show Dems are weak? Trump won Ohio 12 by almost 10 points, and the Republican won the seat in 2016 with DOUBLE the votes of the Democrat. It leans 14% Republican and the O'Conner just lost by less than 1%. And will be on the ballot again in 4 months. To me it shows the Republicans are in deep trouble in November.
It says to me people are fed up with Trump and he loses Ohio in 2020, if he is still in office.

[Tendrin]

Sure. I don't want to live in that world either, man, and I work every day to make it a little bit better.

Soemtimes, that means supporting people I don't agree with, or recognizing that a politician won't give me everything I want. I will work in the primaries to vote for the ones that will, if they have a good chance to take the general, especially as I live in the heart of blue Oregon.

If I lived somewhere more reddish, I might need to be more strategic about my vote because my views might not be shared so deeply by others.

All of those things are okay, but holding my breath and /not voting/ because the politician won't give me exactly what I want only helps ensure bad things happening. If I care about the elderly or the poor, my first goal is to do what I can to help protect them from /more/ harm.

[ZombieHavoc]

Ha, you guys. So naive.

Also, to the point about blaming republicans. I mean, obviously. But we can't do anything about them. Except vote them out. And when people get reckless and selfish and refuse to vote for a particular democratic candidate because their candidate didn't get the nom, well...then there is nothing we can do. 2016 proved that.

It would be nice if we could just primary, like we do...all manner of democratic candidates, and then just, whichever candidate won EVERYONE FUCKING VOTE FOR THEM. But since that's not gonna happen, all the shitty bullshit that we all hate is gonna keep happening.

Some will blame the establishment. Others will blame the far left. Others will just blame the republicans.

I'm gonna blame everyone. Because America is dumb as shit.

[numberthirty]

Yes, all good social movements start from the bottom up with acts of protest and civil disobedience. Militancy, too, is important. MLK would never have succeeded if it weren't for the fear of militant blacks like Malcolm X.

What I am arguing for is not 'vote for the less bad'. It is 'vote for the guy who will help us end children in cages'. We can do nothing about anything that's happening without a hand on the rudder of at least one branch of government. Run radicals where they can win. Run centrists where you need to. Run for everything, everywhere. Sometimes, you will need to pull the lever for politicians who don't align with you (but might align with a good chunk of your district) to win. That's all there is to it.

However, my criticism is reserved only for those who, when push comes to shove, choose their own righteousness and moral certainty over the act of voting in a way to help stop guys who want to strip legal immigrants of citizenship, lock children in cages, strip workers of their rights, want asbestos in your buildings, are stripping people of their voting rights, and on and on. If you claim to care about any of those things, then /vote for the guy who's agenda/ is also in agreement on stopping those things.

Then primary the fuck out of him next go around to show that he needs you in the general.

That's how the evangelicals did it. That's how progressives need to do it. That's how the system works.

People talk about voting for the lesser evil, but let's remember that the lesser evil still means that there is /less evil/.

Again, this guy is talking "Pragmatic" and kitchen table issues.

Where you see that guy in blue, anyone left of dead center probably sees "I Probably Get Manchin Out Of This, At Best."

When you don't need those votes to actually get that guy over the finish line? That guy can just play it safe, and talk pragmatism.

Until then, you need to realize that repeating "Let's Blame Them..." is getting a lot less done than "Let's Give Them Something To Vote For..."

[Tendrin]

Sure. I don't want to live in that world either, man, and I work every day to make it a little bit better.

Soemtimes, that means supporting people I don't agree with, or recognizing that a politician won't give me everything I want. I will work in the primaries to vote for the ones that will, if they have a good chance to take the general, especially as I live in the heart of blue Oregon.

If I lived somewhere more reddish, I might need to be more strategic about my vote because my views might not be shared so deeply by others.

All of those things are okay, but holding my breath and /not voting/ because the politician won't give me exactly what I want only helps ensure bad things happening. If I care about the elderly or the poor, my first goal is to do what I can to help protect them from /more/ harm.