All-purpose news and politics thread: Two Steps Beyond!(Part II)

[aja_christopher]

For this to be a cover-up, Barr would have to assume that no one who was part of the investigation would be upset enough about the lies to leak to the press or to respond truthfully to House Democrats/ the New York Attorney General's office in future investigations.

"Lies" aren't even the issue here, Mets -- the cover up is the lack of transparency (such as claiming that Trump shouldn't even be questioned), which is a standard Republican tactic.

Trump is the liar -- McConnell and the rest of the Republicans (like yourself) just cover for him by trying to deflect to other issues, rather than actually addressing the issue of Russian interference in our democracy directly.

[Mecegirl]

No -- he let Roger Stone cover that aspect of the "campaign" which is why Mueller was pushing to get Stone (and Manafort) to flip on Trump before he ended the investigation.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/15/polit...aks/index.html

Just because no tacit agreement was discovered doesn't mean he (and his children and his campaign managers) didn't attempt to work with the Russians.



This was all part of his plan (including lifting sanctions on Russia in exchange for help in the election) from the start.

Why the need to keep everything he does with Putin secret -- an innocent person has nothing to hide, especially from the nation he is supposed to serve.

I'll also add that an investigation that doesn't directly question the person who is the prime suspect of said investigation isn't a real investigation at all.

All that said he and his campaign still wasn't charged with coordinating with Russia to steal the election by Mueller's report. That isn't to say that he didn't fuck with Russia at all. But to say that it was explicitly so that he could win goes against Mueller's findings, and I see no reason for Mueller to lie. Because if it was really all to win the election what of the reports of Trump's disappointment and shock that he actually won? That's another reason why I think he and his campaign did what they did for money and the tower. He is nothing more than a useful idiot to the Russians. They strung him along with hopes of a project in return for some disruption I'd guess.

I would like to hope that at some point someone looks into the Trump tower stuff. Because what may be found out is that Trump sold America out to Russia for a business deal.

[zinderel]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/a...ion-trump.html

Quite possibly the most reasonable take on the Mueller Report...

[aja_christopher]

All that said he and his campaign still wasn't charged with coordinating with Russia to steal the election by Mueller's report. That isn't to say that he didn't fuck with Russia at all. But to say that it was explicitly so that he could win goes against Mueller's findings, and I see no reason for Mueller to lie. Because if it was really all to win the election what of the reports of Trump's disappointment and shock that he actually won? That's another reason why I think he and his campaign did what they did for money and the tower. He is nothing more than a useful idiot to the Russians. They strung him along with hopes of a project in return for some disruption I'd guess.

I would like to hope that at some point someone looks into the Trump tower stuff. Because what may be found out is that Trump sold America out to Russia for a business deal.

1) None of us have read Mueller's actual findings yet and the Republicans are doing everything they can to make sure we don't read anything they don't want us to see.

2) The bar for legal proof of conspiracy is high enough to where Mueller wouldn't make the accusation unless he had a slam dunk case -- that doesn't mean that there is no case whatsoever, just that Mueller may believe that it wouldn't hold up in court. Stone and/or Manafort might have been the key to making said case and Manafort outright lied to Mueller in the hopes of getting a pardon, while Stone (WikiLeaks) has already said he won't "flip" on Trump no matter what.

Again -- it's useless to even argue this point without seeing the actual report, as well as waiting to see how the pending trials and investigations are resolved.

3) If Trump did all of those things solely for the Tower deal and money, then why is he still covering for Putin and denying American intelligence reports on Russian interference while promoting Russian talking points and refusing to implement congressionally approved sanctions against Russia while trying to remove those that are already in place?

Why ease sanctions on a nation that even Mueller says interfered -- and continues to interfere -- with our democratic process, with the assistance of some of Trump's closest political allies (like Stone and Manafort) many of whom have already been indicted for conspiracy and/or plead guilty to other crimes involving the Russians?

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...ctions-1108939

Underestimating Trump is like underestimating Bush -- just because you might think they are "idiots" doesn't mean they aren't criminal, and just because Trump was "shocked" by his victory doesn't mean he didn't want to win. Regardless, Mueller left the door open for other hearings and criminal investigations by passing them to other prosecutors -- at this point it makes sense to wait and see the report itself and how said investigations play out before claiming that Trump is vindicated.

Apparently, you trust the Republicans (including Mueller) to do the right thing by Trump and -- given their history -- that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree.

[aja_christopher]

"William Barr's Letter on the Mueller Report Left These 16 Pressing Questions Unanswered"

"1. Why didn’t Mueller reach a finding on whether Trump tried to obstruct justice?

This is perhaps the most puzzling aspect of Barr’s letter. According to the attorney general, Mueller didn’t come to a conclusion on whether President Donald Trump obstructed justice. “While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him,” Barr quotes Mueller as saying—adding that the special counsel left the decision to Barr, who cleared Trump. A special counsel is appointed in part to conduct an independent investigation, free from conflicts. So the decision to leave it to a Trump appointee and established critic of the obstruction probe is sure to draw questions from Congress.

2. Why did Mueller let Trump submit written answers, rather than sitting for an interview?

Mueller’s team long sought to interview the president. But in November, Trump’s lawyers submitted written responses to Mueller’s questions about the period before Trump became president, and about Russia-related topics. Trump declined to provide answers to questions related to his time as president or those concerning obstruction of justice.

Mueller could have subpoenaed Trump, a move that would have forced the president to choose between the potential legal risk of being interviewed under oath or the political risk of declining and taking the Fifth or claiming executive privilege. Did Mueller make a political concession to protect his investigation from Trump’s wrath? Democrats are certain to pursue this question.

3. Without interviewing the president, how is it possible to make a decision about obstruction of justice?

In his letter, Barr says prosecutors need to satisfy three legal questions to charge a person with obstruction. Did Trump have corrupt intent? Did he engage in obstructive conduct? And, did that affect a pending or contemplated proceeding? Barr said that Mueller wasn’t able to reach the legal threshold on any of those questions. But Democrats will surely want to know how they reached such a conclusion without interviewing Trump..."

http://fortune.com/2019/03/26/willia...investigation/

[Tendrin]

Trump: runs as untraditional republican who will give everyone great health care, protect social security and medicare against cuts.

Trump in office: gives billionares tax cuts, attempts to cut social security and medidcare, and take people's health cares.

Clear policy preferences indeed.

[Tendrin]

From twitter.

Stonekettle Retweeted The Hill
Betsy DeVos: proposes $18 million in cuts to Special Olympics: "We had to make some difficult decisions"

Also Betsy DeVos: Owns yacht SeaQuest, valued at $40 million, one 10 yachts owned by the DeVos family.

Difficult decisions indeed.

But, hey, at least we owned the libs, right?

[Tendrin]

Meanwhile, San Diego is out to make homelessness even more criminal.

SAN DIEGO — Faced with a flood of homeless people living in cars near the beach, San Diego officials said Monday they will pass a new version of the city’s vehicle habitation law, which banned living in vehicles.

The proposed law would replace a previous version that a federal judge declared unenforceable.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sa...cid=spartanntp

I have a trans acquaintance who was rendered homeless. They were arrested for, if I recall right, driving without a license turning their car on to heat it.

They were just cold.

[worstblogever]

From twitter.

But, hey, at least we owned the libs, right?

I saw what was either a bot or just illiterate Trump supporter on Facebook comment on the Special Olympics being defunded by trying to claim that "Obama and Hillary both had ugly things to say about r****ds, too. I say no moneys for r*****s, I don't pay my tax for them."

They really do get off on cruelty. It's really that simple. They hurt, they want others that aren't "them" to hurt more.

[worstblogever]

On this date in 2015, 2016, 2017, as well as 2018, “Crazy/Stupid Republican of the Day posted profiles of Kelly Keisling, a member of the Tennessee House of Representatives who prior to the 2012 election, made headlines by sending out an e-mail forward from his government account that contained a conspiracy theory that the Obama administration was going to stage a “false flag” assassination attack to institute martial law in major cities and prevent the elections from happening. The theory, insane as it was, originated from a Canadian conspiracy theorist and was then circulated through the hard-right conservative crowd via the Constitution Party of Florida, and their forwards eventually found their way to Keisling’s inbox. After widespread criticism, Keisling defended forwarding the e-mail to his constituents, saying, “I wouldn’t put anything past anybody.” As a legislator up until this point in his first two terms, had voted to nullify the Affordable Care Act, voted for stricter Voter ID laws to disenfranchise tens of thousands of voters to prevent statistically non-existent in person-voter fraud, had voted to prevent enacting the United Nations’ Agenda 21 environmental treaty, voted for abstinence-only sex education in Tennessee schools, voted for abortion to be outlawed if a fetal heartbeat is detected (i.e. six weeks in, before many women even realize they’re pregnant), voted to bring back the electric chair as a valid method of execution in the Volunteer State, and voted for every pro-gun bill that flew through the Tennessee state legislature prior to the 2016 NRA convention being hosted in Nashville.

Keisling was re-elected in 2018 with 81% of the vote. He will presumably return to office to vote for things like wasting taxpayer dollars on building a “monument to the unborn”, because he and his Tennessee GOP colleagues are obsessed with zygotes.

[Tendrin]

I saw what was either a bot or just illiterate Trump supporter on Facebook comment on the Special Olympics being defunded by trying to claim that "Obama and Hillary both had ugly things to say about r****ds, too. I say no moneys for r*****s, I don't pay my tax for them."

They really do get off on cruelty. It's really that simple. They hurt, they want others that aren't "them" to hurt more.

"He's not hurting the ones he's supposed to hurt," a Trump supporter was quoted as saying.

Gee, I wonder who he was 'supposed' to hurt?

[Mecegirl]

1) None of us have read Mueller's actual findings yet and the Republicans are doing everything they can to make sure we don't read anything they don't want us to see.

Yes. But that is most likely because of obstruction, not collusion, coordination...whatever the fuck the legal term is supposed to be.

2) The bar for legal proof of conspiracy is high enough to where Mueller wouldn't make the accusation unless he had a slam dunk case -- that doesn't mean that there is no case whatsoever, just that Mueller may believe that it wouldn't hold up in court. Stone and/or Manafort might have been the key to making said case and Manafort outright lied to Mueller in the hopes of getting a pardon, while Stone (WikiLeaks) has already said he won't "flip" on Trump no matter what.

Again -- it's useless to even argue this point without seeing the actual report, as well as waiting to see how the pending trials and investigations are resolved.

Not just conspiracy though. Conspiracy specifically as it pertains to winning the election and stealing emails. It is a very narrow thing that Mueller was asked to look at.

3) If Trump did all of those things solely for the Tower deal and money, then why is he still covering for Putin and denying American intelligence reports on Russian interference while promoting Russian talking points and refusing to implement congressionally approved sanctions against Russia while trying to remove those that are already in place?

Why ease sanctions on a nation that even Mueller says interfered -- and continues to interfere -- with our democratic process, with the assistance of some of Trump's closest political allies (like Stone and Manafort) many of whom have already been indicted for conspiracy and/or plead guilty to other crimes involving the Russians?

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...ctions-1108939

Underestimating Trump is like underestimating Bush -- just because you might think they are "idiots" doesn't mean they aren't criminal, and just because Trump was "shocked" by his victory doesn't mean he didn't want to win. Regardless, Mueller left the door open for other hearings and criminal investigations by passing them to other prosecutors -- at this point it makes sense to wait and see the report itself and how said investigations play out before claiming that Trump is vindicated.

Because Putin has something else on him, most likely specific proof that he was doing it all for money and the tower. Remember, this is not Trump's first time meeting Russians. He's been doing shady shit with them to get money for a while now. Dude has old ties to the Russian Mafia, so of course they have something on him.

This is not about overestimating or underestimating Trump. We have enough evidence even without the report to tell that Trump didn't want to win, that he wanted a tower, and that he wanted money/fame. But once again here is the problem. Mueller's parameters are super narrow. Basically he was asked to look into election interference by the Russians and into if Trump and co made some deal to help Trump win. He was also asked if trump tried to obstruct justice. Trump being cleared of coordination by such narrow terms DOES NOT mean that Trump didn't coordinate with the Russians at all. Just that he didn't do it to win. And in that sense he has been cleared. If Mueller were tasked with looking into general coordination, conspiracy, collusion pick a c word....then sure. But for better or worse Mueller does things by the letter, something Comey should have done when it came the Clinton, but I digress. Russians have been charged, People in the Trump orbit have been charged with (among other things) lying about meetings with Russians. Not with coordination as it pertains to the election with Russians.

Trump is not cleared on obstruction though, and it is most likely general shadiness(look at what happend to his "charitable foundation") and his other dealings with Russia that caused him and others to lie. They knew they shouldn't have been talking to any foreign powers about anything, but did so anyway, and so they lied about it. What exactly they did do with Russia will be in the report.

Apparently, you trust the Republicans (including Mueller) to do the right thing by Trump and -- given their history -- that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree.

Considering my posting history I'd gonna ask you to stuff that assumption back up your ass. Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean that I trust the Republican party.

As to Mueller you are talking about the person who gave damning evidence to other investigators because it wasn't within the scope of his investigation. Cohen is in jail in part because of him and Trump is an unindicted co conspirator in part because of him. That is just the most famous example. I just don't see the same person who did that bending over backwards for Trump. His political affiliation has nothing to do with it.

Unfortunately Barr is the go between for the public, congress and Mueller's findings. So if we never find out what is in the report it is Mr Iran Contra coverup that we have to blame.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

This is not about overestimating or underestimating Trump. We have enough evidence even without the report to tell that Trump didn't want to win, that he wanted a tower, and that he wanted money/fame.

I recall reading a story (from the New Yorker I think) where no one in Trump's orbit was more surprised he won the election than Trump himself. Hell, he had already conceded to his lemmings that he was going to lose, that he was going to be cheated out of the victory by Hillary, but, that was before James Comey's eleventh hour bushwhacking of Clinton turned the election on it's ear. And it's by that same rationale Trump has cozied up to Kim Jong Un while stabbing the U.S., South Korea and Japan in the back because he wants to put a tower in Pyongyang.

[aja_christopher]

Considering my posting history I'd gonna ask you to stuff that assumption back up your ass. Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean that I trust the Republican party.

As to Mueller you are talking about the person who gave damning evidence to other investigators because it wasn't within the scope of his investigation. Cohen is in jail in part because of him and Trump is an unindicted co conspirator in part because of him. That is just the most famous example. I just don't see the same person who did that bending over backwards for Trump. His political affiliation has nothing to do with it.

Unfortunately Barr is the go between for the public, congress and Mueller's findings. So if we never find out what is in the report it is Mr Iran Contra coverup that we have to blame.

Apparently you do agree with me though in that without reading the report for ourselves, we can only go by what Mueller and Barr (both Republicans) have put out there -- which is very little in comparison to all of the information they have at hand.

If you are also saying that you see Mueller as an objective investigator who was restrained by the parameters of said investigation, then -- again -- there's no disagreement there, although I personally have no problem questioning his objectivity, given his party affiliation, and without seeing the actual report, those questions will remain unanswered.

The Republicans have seen to it that might never happen and that is the point I am addressing directly -- along with the ongoing illegal Russian interference into our democratic process, which they repeatedly deny, ignore or sometimes even sanction (WikiLeaks). Barr is the "go-between" because Republicans put him in place to protect both themselves and Trump and he has done his job (so far) accordingly.

Likewise, your claim that Trump didn't want to win the election is debatable as well, but we've already addressed that so there's not much point in discussing it further.

------
"James Comey said he's confused that Mueller didn't rule on whether Trump obstructed justice, which he says throws the whole point of a special counsel probe into question"

"Mueller declined to reach a conclusion on obstruction when he submitted his report on Friday. He also said that he found no evidence of Trump or his campaign colluding with Russia.

"The part that's confusing is I can't quite understand what's going on with the obstruction stuff," Comey told the audience at the Belk Theatre, according to NBC News.

"And I have great faith in Bob Mueller, but I just can't tell from the letter why didn't he decide these questions when the entire rationale for a special counsel is to make sure the politicals aren't making the key charging decisions," he added.

Comey was a senior official in the Department of Justice while Mueller was FBI Director. When Mueller stepped down, Comey took his place...

"The notion that obstruction cases are somehow undermined by the absence of proof of an underlying crime, that is not my experience in 40 years of doing this nor is it the Department of Justice's tradition.

"Obstruction crimes matter without regard to what you prove about the underlying crime," Comey said.

While allies of the president have hailed Mueller's report as a vindication of his claim to be innocent of collusion and obstruction of justice, Democrats have demanded to see Mueller's report in full, and to know the grounds for Mueller declining to reach a conclusion over obstruction charges."

https://www.businessinsider.com/come...ruction-2019-3

[PwrdOn]

I recall reading a story (from the New Yorker I think) where no one in Trump's orbit was more surprised he won the election than Trump himself. Hell, he had already conceded to his lemmings that he was going to lose, that he was going to be cheated out of the victory by Hillary, but, that was before James Comey's eleventh hour bushwhacking of Clinton turned the election on it's ear. And it's by that same rationale Trump has cozied up to Kim Jong Un while stabbing the U.S., South Korea and Japan in the back because he wants to put a tower in Pyongyang.

It would be one thing if Trump were really just a foreign agent under the sway of the Russians, but the reality is actually a lot more troubling because it's becoming more and more evident by the day that there is no one behind the scenes calling the shots and that everyone is pretty much just winging it. Russia just saw Trump as a conduit through which to troll America and disrupt our political system, I don't think they expected he would actually win and they really didn't have much of a plan to capitalize on it afterwards. And this makes the administration all the more dangerous because there's no accountability whatsoever. It won't even be possible to purge Washington of Trump's influence after he leaves, because just about the entire party has eagerly lined up behind him and so restoring the "sane Republicans" to prominence would be an epic failure along the lines of the de-Baathification in Iraq.