Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Yoda]

Oh yeah forgot my nuclear hot take: The Kents are better off dead. The Kents are in fact perfect people the way casuals strawman Superman as so I don’t know why on Earth people want them around in the modern day. If Superman’s best stories involve “dealing with things he can’t just punch” (which is funny given his best selling story is just him and Doomsday beating each other to death), how the hell can those stories contain any drama when Superman can just go see wise ol’ Pa and Ma and get the answer for the right course to take? They’re better off dead where they can provide inspiring flashbacks without having a 30 something year old hero running back to Ma and Pa to cry and eat pie because Lex called him a slur.

I don't generally disagree. Though I think it comes down to the quality of the writing. There's nothing inherently wrong with an adult going to their parents for some guidance occasionally. Overdone like anything else it becomes a problem. In the hands of the same writers I think it'd be the same problem with flashbacks as there would be some homespun flashback for every instance.

I do like Pa's death as a wake up call that his powers can't save everyone and think it's a powerful point to make. Which is why I dislike takes like Morrison's where they are killed by a villain or Snyder's take where he lets him die. That's stuff his powers can stop, so it diminishes the deaths.

[stargazer01]

This is that Snyder quote. So in context it's a little more nuanced than that and not that far off from what I'm saying.



I don't find Snyder to be the most careful or clear on expressing his thoughts, nor do I agree with his POV on a lot of stuff. But I think what he's trying to say is that in universe Lois Lane is an independent person. And the fact that Clark sees that and finds it attractive makes him a better person generally. Meaning, someone who appreciates those traits is a smarter, better, cooler person. The "Clark needs her more" bit I read as going towards the needs of the stories. Admittedly, it's a muddled thought all around.

Yes that's the quote, and yes his Superman opinions are often very muddled. I think it reflects in his movies too. I don't fully agree with him there. I think he sees Superman as an emotionally weaker character than I prefer.

[king81992]

I like Cyborg being on the JL and dread the day nostalgia fans get their way and force him back into the dumpster fire that is the Titans franchise these days.

Also the Titans are pretty useless because no one knows what to do with them. “We’re a family” is not a strong enough mission statement. Nightwing and Wally West are the only two Titans I care about.

Too much soap opera can also be a retraction though. It can drown the book in minor characters plot lines to the detriment of the main character. That’s what happened to the Superbooks at the end of the 20th century.

At this point, I think that most people wouldn't mind Cyborg being on the JL and running his own Titans team. If Batman can run the Outsiders, patrol Gotham and be a member of the JL, there's no reason for Cyborg not to lead his own Titans team. Also, the sooner Damian's current TT are replaced the better.

[phonogram12]

Of the Big 3, the only character to have benefited from all the post-Crisis revamps was Batman.

[Frontier]

TV Supergirl is too likable to be Lois Lane. The only time I ever thought Lois was likable was in the Superman the Animated Series.

The only version of Lois I can think of who was all that unlikeable was early Post-Crisis Lois where she was constantly aggressive, mean-spirited, or bitter.

I like Cyborg being on the JL and dread the day nostalgia fans get their way and force him back into the dumpster fire that is the Titans franchise these days.

Also the Titans are pretty useless because no one knows what to do with them. “We’re a family” is not a strong enough mission statement. Nightwing and Wally West are the only two Titans I care about.

I mean, even you have to quantify that with how mismanaged the franchise has been, so I don't think it's the connection that's the issue but how far the franchise has fallen.

[Yoda]

I think we're on the same page as far as stripping him of his Earth based elements and cast is wrong altogether. And yeah Brainiac and Zod and co all interact with him on Earth as well.

But him battling Brainiac in space I don't think needs a deeper explanation than him primarily being known as a Superman villain, so who else would he usually be fighting? He was introduced because Superman has a cosmic side. Meanwhile, he battles Lex Luthor on Earth, but so could Batman or Wonder Woman.

Thinking about this, I think I’d argue that a wholly space set Brainiac story is basically just a generic sci-fi story. There aren’t many elements of that that would change beyond a connection to Superman as the last Kryptonian. Beyond that it generally loses the elements of a “Superman” story. Mainly I think you need a connection to humanity to really tell “Superman” stories.

You can definitely tell Batman/Luthor or Wonder Woman/Luthor stories and retain the central elements of Batman and Wonder Woman. It’d play on different elements than it would with Superman, but it could work.

I think my point generally is that you can tell good cosmic stories with Superman, with few exceptions they are limited to just good stories. Ultimately you could sub in any number of other characters and not change the storyline much. But to tell good “Superman” stories you need the human elements.

[Pohzee]

Of the Big 3, the only character to have benefited from all the post-Crisis revamps was Batman.

Unpopular opinion: Neither did he

[SiegePerilous02]

Thinking about this, I think I’d argue that a wholly space set Brainiac story is basically just a generic sci-fi story. There aren’t many elements of that that would change beyond a connection to Superman as the last Kryptonian. Beyond that it generally loses the elements of a “Superman” story. Mainly I think you need a connection to humanity to really tell “Superman” stories.

You can definitely tell Batman/Luthor or Wonder Woman/Luthor stories and retain the central elements of Batman and Wonder Woman. It’d play on different elements than it would with Superman, but it could work.

I think my point generally is that you can tell good cosmic stories with Superman, with few exceptions they are limited to just good stories. Ultimately you could sub in any number of other characters and not change the storyline much. But to tell good “Superman” stories you need the human elements.

You do need the connection to humanity, but you really need that to tell all superhero stories.

I think my problem with too much humanity is the general trend to to focus on the Superman and not so much the Superman, making the character just seem like any other generic meta rather than the larger than life cosmic level Sci-Fi Hercules he can be, who does and sees all the craziest, weird ****. The character is at his best when it is a well balanced Superman. The humanity is vital because at his core he's the Champion of the Oppressed and those stories cannot be told without humanity, but he's also the guy who sees and does the larger than life impossible. And really when hes off in space or whatever, the best writers can still tell a very human story.

Unpopular opinion: Neither did he

Yeah, Bruce just gradually became a grouchy bitch. I have to read the pre-Crisis comics or watch the DCAU to remember why i love the guy half the time.
I think I prefer pre-Crisis across the board for the Trinity. Wonder Woman got some good stuff in post-Crisis but it was a mixed bag, and it is mostly great in comparison to what came immediately before hand. Even so, I prefer the general mythos of her pre-Crisis lore. Superman was just straight up terrible aside from, like, Maggie Sawyer and that's it. Other stuff like the marriage could have still developed eventually without a revamp.

[Frontier]

Yeah, Bruce just gradually became a grouchy bitch. I have to read the pre-Crisis comics or watch the DCAU to remember why i love the guy half the time.
I think I prefer pre-Crisis across the board for the Trinity. Wonder Woman got some good stuff in post-Crisis but it was a mixed bag, and it is mostly great in comparison to what came immediately before hand. Even so, I prefer the general mythos of her pre-Crisis lore. Superman was just straight up terrible aside from, like, Maggie Sawyer and that's it. Other stuff like the marriage could have still developed eventually without a revamp.

DCAU Batman developed pretty similarly to Post-Crisis Batman in terms of becoming more bitter, laser-focused, and serious, especially by the point he starts mentoring Terry, you just had B:TAS that showcased him in his prime before that happened.

For me I think Post-Crisis added enough to the Superman mythos to warrant it's existence. The marriage may yet have happened but the way it came about played into the Post-Crisis continuity and development of Lois and Clark's relationship so I'm not sure if one can really say that.

It's generally become the main inspiration point for a lot of Superman adaptions.

[Vampire Savior]

Cyborg on the Justice League has always been laughable. He really doesn't have much to offer that team. He has no mythology and he overall just sucks. Most of the time. He was okay-ish in some Marv Wolfman comics and I liked some instances of him on Teen Titans Go!, but I mostly see that character as a spectacularly mishandled failure on an even comical level. I actually do not understand the appeal of him, aside from him being DC's token black, and that's not appealing in and of itself to me, but it appears to be for some people.

I was first exposed to him on the first Teen Titans cartoon, and as a brown kid growing up, he NEVER appealed to me. Why? He was a visually unappealing over-sized robotic brute-looking character saying stuff like "BOOYAH!" And...I dunno'. I didn't relate with that. I thought it was stereotypical and cringey. That said, I'm sure somebody was into that, but I'm just offering my own personal perspective.

As for Martian Manhunter, he kind of sucks, too, in that he's completely uninteresting on his own, and I wouldn't say that about any other founding Justice League member. That said, I do think the team benefits from having a sage-like member who every other member respects and can talk to.

[DrNewGod]

I like Cyborg and Martian Manhunter just fine.....but NEITHER of them deserve to be founding members of the Justice League. What do Batman, Aquaman, Superman, The Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman have, that J’onn and Victor don’t?
The other six have their own mythos unique to them, solos that last more than 30 issues before cancellation, their own villains and supporting characters. J’onn is just too derivative of Superman. And Cyborg just isn’t a solo character. He doesn’t have his own mythos outside of the new gods or the Titans.
Again, I like them just fine. But if it were up to me, the only founding members would be Clark, Bruce, Diana, Hal, Barry and Arthur. But if I absolutely had to pick a 7th member, it would be another woman like Hawkgirl or Vixen.

Agree completely. I think some writers trying to make MM and Cyborg more important than they really have been in the DCU in all media, imo.

No. In 1961, Martian Manhunter was one of DC's more prominent superhero characters, consistently appearing in a feature within a title (like Aquaman). In 1961, that was the minimum standard for admission to The Elite Club, as it had been for The JSA in 1940 (although, I admit that Green Arrow should have been there too by those standards; too much like Batman?). Cyborg didn't have that going for him at the time they tried making a JL Centerpiece of him.

[DrNewGod]

I like Pa to die soon in Clark's career as Superman. Ma can be alive much longer until she meets her grandchild. The Kents are important when Clark is young and learning to be careful with his powers. They raise him and teach him great values. After that, I don't mind Ma being alive because it provides nice and heartfelt family memories and moments. Even Superman needs a family to talk to and have quality time.

This is why Pre-Crisis Superboy was valuable. To give Kal-el a family. It's also why Action Comics should be separated from all other Superman titles' continuity. It.would give us a place where those parts of Superman, that have no utility to his ongoing adventures, can be explored.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

No. In 1961, Martian Manhunter was one of DC's more prominent superhero characters, consistently appearing in a feature within a title (like Aquaman). In 1961, that was the minimum standard for admission to The Elite Club, as it had been for The JSA in 1940 (although, I admit that Green Arrow should have been there too by those standards; too much like Batman?). Cyborg didn't have that going for him at the time they tried making a JL Centerpiece of him.

Yeah except it is now 2019, not 1961. Being a has-been can only get you so far.

[Agent Z]

The post crisis revamps weren't a problem until writers became obsessed with bringing pre crisis stuff.

[Vordan]

The only version of Lois I can think of who was all that unlikeable was early Post-Crisis Lois where she was constantly aggressive, mean-spirited, or bitter.

I mean, even you have to quantify that with how mismanaged the franchise has been, so I don't think it's the connection that's the issue but how far the franchise has fallen.

Even if the franchise were to rebuild itself I’m still not sure I want Cyborg back with them. I like him on the League. As someone powered by Apokoliptan tech I think he totally fits there. Writers have not done a good job of building his relationships with the League but I don’t think that’s impossible. If he ever did go back to the Titans he would have to be the leader for me to be ok with it.