Page 251 of 262 FirstFirst ... 151201241247248249250251252253254255261 ... LastLast
Results 3,751 to 3,765 of 3925
  1. #3751
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    17,003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Why is this flaw one he shouldn't have?
    Because people don't actually do any literary analysis.

    Clark has almost always been really bad with family relations. He's just not good at it and struggles to connect with people who're related to him. Must be hard to spend your entire life thinking you're the last of your kind, building your entire self-image with that fact, and then finding out that you're not actually alone. Is that a great feeling? I'm sure it must be, but it's one Clark rarely knows what to do with and it always takes him time to find his stride when it comes to family.

    And I could go down the list of characters Clark has been related to (or thought he was) and how he treated them badly. But we can just look at Conner's early years and see the same pattern that played out with Kara, Mon-El, etc. And not only did Clark keep Conner at a distance and have almost no interactions with him for a long ass time, he left the kid under the authority of a skeevy talent agent Clark had never met, who clearly had ignoble intentions and a jailbait daughter with intentions of her own that most fathers would be at least a little wary of. But Clark thought it was perfectly okay to let this naive kid go off with a dude who only cared about making money off Conner's "S."

    Clark is bad at being a father/family patriarch. That is what the page has told us for eighty years. It wasn't until Jon that Clark was written as a good, Rockwellian father. But that doesn't fit the narrative everyone has in their heads about Superman being a paragon of virtue with no "real" flaws worth noting.

    Young Justice wrote Clark correctly, with an eye towards his actual character and not the legend he's become in our culture. People just dislike the notion that Superman isn't perfect and has some serious character flaws.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #3752
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    4,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Because people don't actually do any literary analysis.

    Clark has almost always been really bad with family relations. He's just not good at it and struggles to connect with people who're related to him. Must be hard to spend your entire life thinking you're the last of your kind, building your entire self-image with that fact, and then finding out that you're not actually alone. Is that a great feeling? I'm sure it must be, but it's one Clark rarely knows what to do with and it always takes him time to find his stride when it comes to family.

    And I could go down the list of characters Clark has been related to (or thought he was) and how he treated them badly. But we can just look at Conner's early years and see the same pattern that played out with Kara, Mon-El, etc. And not only did Clark keep Conner at a distance and have almost no interactions with him for a long ass time, he left the kid under the authority of a skeevy talent agent Clark had never met, who clearly had ignoble intentions and a jailbait daughter with intentions of her own that most fathers would be at least a little wary of. But Clark thought it was perfectly okay to let this naive kid go off with a dude who only cared about making money off Conner's "S."

    Clark is bad at being a father/family patriarch. That is what the page has told us for eighty years. It wasn't until Jon that Clark was written as a good, Rockwellian father. But that doesn't fit the narrative everyone has in their heads about Superman being a paragon of virtue with no "real" flaws worth noting.

    Young Justice wrote Clark correctly, with an eye towards his actual character and not the legend he's become in our culture. People just dislike the notion that Superman isn't perfect and has some serious character flaws.
    Well, it's rare for him to actually take that role in stories.

    Another way of looking at it is he's like that guy who wants to be a good dad, but spends most of his time at work and rarely talks to his kids. It's not that he's bad, more that he doesn't have the time to do as much as would be best.

  3. #3753
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    6,898

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Because people don't actually do any literary analysis.

    Clark has almost always been really bad with family relations. He's just not good at it and struggles to connect with people who're related to him. Must be hard to spend your entire life thinking you're the last of your kind, building your entire self-image with that fact, and then finding out that you're not actually alone. Is that a great feeling? I'm sure it must be, but it's one Clark rarely knows what to do with and it always takes him time to find his stride when it comes to family.

    And I could go down the list of characters Clark has been related to (or thought he was) and how he treated them badly. But we can just look at Conner's early years and see the same pattern that played out with Kara, Mon-El, etc. And not only did Clark keep Conner at a distance and have almost no interactions with him for a long ass time, he left the kid under the authority of a skeevy talent agent Clark had never met, who clearly had ignoble intentions and a jailbait daughter with intentions of her own that most fathers would be at least a little wary of. But Clark thought it was perfectly okay to let this naive kid go off with a dude who only cared about making money off Conner's "S."

    Clark is bad at being a father/family patriarch. That is what the page has told us for eighty years. It wasn't until Jon that Clark was written as a good, Rockwellian father. But that doesn't fit the narrative everyone has in their heads about Superman being a paragon of virtue with no "real" flaws worth noting.

    Young Justice wrote Clark correctly, with an eye towards his actual character and not the legend he's become in our culture. People just dislike the notion that Superman isn't perfect and has some serious character flaws.
    I think it works with Jon because he has Lois to be there as his backup and he has been bad at it prior. With the knowledge of his weaknesses as well as a partner who loves and understands him, Clark gets it together and becomes a better father figure. I don't see it as ignoring his past, I see it as an older Clark getting his shit together and trying to be a better father. He was still overprotective at times (Tomasi's run early in) or aloof at others (letting Jon go off with his father, who he still wanted to see the best in). He wasn't perfect. He makes mistakes, but he's trying. That's true of any incarnation of Clark as a father figure.

    It's growth, or at least that's how I've read it.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  4. #3754
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,585

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Why is this flaw one he shouldn't have?

    It's not like they made Clark an abuser, an adulterer or sex addict. At worst, they had him be realistically uncomfortable about a situation that anyone else would realistically be trouble accepting. If we can't have Superman be rightfully upset when his DNA is misused without his knowledge or consent, then what flaws should he have that are acceptable?

    I just don't think YJ Superman is anywhere near the most offensive portrayal of Superman.
    I don't think it's the worst depiction but I do see it as flawed. I never said it was offensive or the worst Superman ever.

    Clark can be upset about his DNA being misused but I don't think it was the right direction to have that manifest with him ignoring Connor and not focusing that rage on Cadmus.

    I see Kal as somebody who may have been uncomfortable at first but then he would try to do right by Connor while directing his discomfort at Cadmus. The bare minimum is that Superman is somebody who is always trying to do the right thing no matter how uncertain that is.

    In fairness, they are also shown to be very flawed in their own right, including Batman. See season 3. You could say it was Batman's turn there after Superman was shown as flawed in season 1.
    I think stuff like 'dead beat dad' tends to hit closer to home than stuff like 'lying for the greater good'.

    The reactions I saw for YJ S1 Superman when the show was coming out ranged from 'Superman needs flaws, otherwise he's flawless' to people claiming that Superman is outdated and less cooler than his contemporaries like Batman. It certainly didn't endear him to viewers the same way the basket ball scene between Bruce and Dick and later the 'so he wouldn't' scene endeared Batman to viewers.

  5. #3755
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    13,859

    Default

    The issue was never with Clark being uncomfortable with Connor at first and not handling it perfectly right out of the gate. That's fine and in keeping with his character.

    The issue really is barely using him at all in the first season and dragging out Connor's angst so they could resolve it in the season finale. It really is something the two of them should hash out in an episode devoted to them at the halfway point at the latest. Or at least give Clark a few more scenes that shed light on his perspective before the finale.

  6. #3756
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,882

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Because people don't actually do any literary analysis.

    Clark has almost always been really bad with family relations. He's just not good at it and struggles to connect with people who're related to him. Must be hard to spend your entire life thinking you're the last of your kind, building your entire self-image with that fact, and then finding out that you're not actually alone. Is that a great feeling? I'm sure it must be, but it's one Clark rarely knows what to do with and it always takes him time to find his stride when it comes to family.

    And I could go down the list of characters Clark has been related to (or thought he was) and how he treated them badly. But we can just look at Conner's early years and see the same pattern that played out with Kara, Mon-El, etc. And not only did Clark keep Conner at a distance and have almost no interactions with him for a long ass time, he left the kid under the authority of a skeevy talent agent Clark had never met, who clearly had ignoble intentions and a jailbait daughter with intentions of her own that most fathers would be at least a little wary of. But Clark thought it was perfectly okay to let this naive kid go off with a dude who only cared about making money off Conner's "S."

    Clark is bad at being a father/family patriarch. That is what the page has told us for eighty years. It wasn't until Jon that Clark was written as a good, Rockwellian father. But that doesn't fit the narrative everyone has in their heads about Superman being a paragon of virtue with no "real" flaws worth noting.

    Young Justice wrote Clark correctly, with an eye towards his actual character and not the legend he's become in our culture. People just dislike the notion that Superman isn't perfect and has some serious character flaws.
    Suddenly remembers that Mon-El nearly died, and ended up spending centuries in the Phantom Zone (depending non the continuity), due to Clark's issues.

    Clark deserves a Ron Simmons style "damn!"

  7. #3757
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    28,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Because people don't actually do any literary analysis.

    Clark has almost always been really bad with family relations. He's just not good at it and struggles to connect with people who're related to him. Must be hard to spend your entire life thinking you're the last of your kind, building your entire self-image with that fact, and then finding out that you're not actually alone. Is that a great feeling? I'm sure it must be, but it's one Clark rarely knows what to do with and it always takes him time to find his stride when it comes to family.

    And I could go down the list of characters Clark has been related to (or thought he was) and how he treated them badly. But we can just look at Conner's early years and see the same pattern that played out with Kara, Mon-El, etc. And not only did Clark keep Conner at a distance and have almost no interactions with him for a long ass time, he left the kid under the authority of a skeevy talent agent Clark had never met, who clearly had ignoble intentions and a jailbait daughter with intentions of her own that most fathers would be at least a little wary of. But Clark thought it was perfectly okay to let this naive kid go off with a dude who only cared about making money off Conner's "S."

    Clark is bad at being a father/family patriarch. That is what the page has told us for eighty years. It wasn't until Jon that Clark was written as a good, Rockwellian father. But that doesn't fit the narrative everyone has in their heads about Superman being a paragon of virtue with no "real" flaws worth noting.

    Young Justice wrote Clark correctly, with an eye towards his actual character and not the legend he's become in our culture. People just dislike the notion that Superman isn't perfect and has some serious character flaws.
    I agree with you in spirit but I feel saying Clark was always a bad father isn't accurate. Mainly because he wasn't in the position of being a father for most of his life. As I mentioned, Kara and Kon aren't his children (and initially, Kon wasn't a clone of Clark), John Henry Irons, Karen and others weren't children, let alone Clark's kids. From what I recall, he did a good enough job raising Chris.

  8. #3758
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,729

    Default

    DC needs to break this multimedia habit of having certain characters commit irredeemable acts and other characters seemingly ignore them like they didn't happen
    The J-man

  9. #3759
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    17,003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think it works with Jon because he has Lois to be there as his backup and he has been bad at it prior.

    It's growth, or at least that's how I've read it.
    I think it can be read that way and not really "break" anything, absolutely. That's a fair take. But I think Jurgens and Tomasi simply ignored the characterization because it didn't fit the happy Rockwellian narrative of SuperDad they wanted to tell, and everyone after is now stuck with it. We can tell ourselves that Clark learned to be a good father, and in truth I think he would grow into the role, given time. But we never actually see that happen. We just meet Jon, fully formed and ten years old, and are left to assume that all the mischaracterizations are due to intentional character development and not inconsistent writing or not fully understanding the character in the first place. And as my old English Lit professor said, the only evidence is what's on the page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I agree with you in spirit but I feel saying Clark was always a bad father isn't accurate. Mainly because he wasn't in the position of being a father for most of his life. As I mentioned, Kara and Kon aren't his children (and initially, Kon wasn't a clone of Clark), John Henry Irons, Karen and others weren't children, let alone Clark's kids. From what I recall, he did a good enough job raising Chris.
    No, fatherhood isn't a role Clark found himself in often. But it's not just fatherhood, it's family in general.

    Kara has been left with foster parents, Amazons, and Lex Luthor (depending on the continuity). After losing everything else in her life, a kid unaware of earth culture and custom, and her only surviving family member leaves her with people he barely knows (admittedly the Lex thing was against his wishes and Matrix doesn't *totally* count, but still).

    Power Girl is a weird one because she's family, but not family. However, she's still *a* Kryptonian, still *a* El, and Clark only sees her at JLA/JSA Thanksgiving dinners. Karen isn't exactly Clark's family but she's awfully damn close, yet he has a better relationship with Bizarro. I give Clark a free pass here because of Karen's multiversal origins (which is why I didn't list her as an example before) but she certainly doesn't prove that Clark is *good* with family, either.

    Conner, yeah he wasn't Clark's clone at first but he wears the "S" and is a young, naÔve kid in need of guidance. Clark still dumps the kid off on someone else rather than deal with it.

    John Henry is something different. He's Clark's age, human, and while he wears the "S" he's not a child in need of family. He's a friend, and Clark has a great relationship with him (or did, back when DC still used John Henry). Which helps prove that Clark is better with his friends than his family.

    Chris, yeah I suppose we can say Clark did okay by that kid. I don't remember the details enough to really judge. It was written by Johns though, so there's no doubt in my mind this wasn't intentional character growth as much as Johns just not understanding Clark's history and character (I like Johns, but he doesn't write a good Superman in my book).

    We can also make some allowances for Mon-El, because Clark was so young (and it was the Silver Age, gotta take that stuff with a grain of salt). But it shows us that dealing with family is something that has never come naturally to Clark at any point in his history until the modern age, where his legend has become this weird boy scout space jesus thing that makes him out to be far more perfect than he is.

    I'm totally willing to accept the notion that Clark grew into the fatherhood role with Jon. I'll buy that. But we never see it, the struggle Clark would have gone through to become a good father (because nobody changes overnight) is never referenced. We can read it as character growth and that's not entirely unviable, but really, we're just accepting a change in characterization that isn't justified by anything on the page.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #3760
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Occupied Klendathu
    Posts
    8,607

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    DC needs to break this multimedia habit of having certain characters commit irredeemable acts and other characters seemingly ignore them like they didn't happen
    You can say Harley Quinn, we all know that's her raison d'Ítre.

  11. #3761
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    6,898

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think it can be read that way and not really "break" anything, absolutely. That's a fair take. But I think Jurgens and Tomasi simply ignored the characterization because it didn't fit the happy Rockwellian narrative of SuperDad they wanted to tell, and everyone after is now stuck with it. We can tell ourselves that Clark learned to be a good father, and in truth I think he would grow into the role, given time. But we never actually see that happen. We just meet Jon, fully formed and ten years old, and are left to assume that all the mischaracterizations are due to intentional character development and not inconsistent writing or not fully understanding the character in the first place. And as my old English Lit professor said, the only evidence is what's on the page.



    No, fatherhood isn't a role Clark found himself in often. But it's not just fatherhood, it's family in general.

    Kara has been left with foster parents, Amazons, and Lex Luthor (depending on the continuity). After losing everything else in her life, a kid unaware of earth culture and custom, and her only surviving family member leaves her with people he barely knows (admittedly the Lex thing was against his wishes and Matrix doesn't *totally* count, but still).

    Power Girl is a weird one because she's family, but not family. However, she's still *a* Kryptonian, still *a* El, and Clark only sees her at JLA/JSA Thanksgiving dinners. Karen isn't exactly Clark's family but she's awfully damn close, yet he has a better relationship with Bizarro. I give Clark a free pass here because of Karen's multiversal origins (which is why I didn't list her as an example before) but she certainly doesn't prove that Clark is *good* with family, either.

    Conner, yeah he wasn't Clark's clone at first but he wears the "S" and is a young, naÔve kid in need of guidance. Clark still dumps the kid off on someone else rather than deal with it.

    John Henry is something different. He's Clark's age, human, and while he wears the "S" he's not a child in need of family. He's a friend, and Clark has a great relationship with him (or did, back when DC still used John Henry). Which helps prove that Clark is better with his friends than his family.

    Chris, yeah I suppose we can say Clark did okay by that kid. I don't remember the details enough to really judge. It was written by Johns though, so there's no doubt in my mind this wasn't intentional character growth as much as Johns just not understanding Clark's history and character (I like Johns, but he doesn't write a good Superman in my book).

    We can also make some allowances for Mon-El, because Clark was so young (and it was the Silver Age, gotta take that stuff with a grain of salt). But it shows us that dealing with family is something that has never come naturally to Clark at any point in his history until the modern age, where his legend has become this weird boy scout space jesus thing that makes him out to be far more perfect than he is.

    I'm totally willing to accept the notion that Clark grew into the fatherhood role with Jon. I'll buy that. But we never see it, the struggle Clark would have gone through to become a good father (because nobody changes overnight) is never referenced. We can read it as character growth and that's not entirely unviable, but really, we're just accepting a change in characterization that isn't justified by anything on the page.
    Don't bring writing proverbs into this because then I gave up bring up "is this the most interesting part of your character's story, and if not, why aren't I reading that?"

    And we missed that twice with Jon's development. Both times, we skipped the turbulent phases so we can get to the most digestible forms - generic child and teen age.

    Oops!

    Ultimately, we're always filling in blanks on the printed page. Our imagination and ability to extrapolate connective tissue is what holds all these disparate stories together. I know because I'm working on a project where I had to look at a lot of his history and generally it holds an arc but the through line is derailed often because of the nature of the beast, like that time he embraced Diana and it's obscured by the sun so it's either a hug or making out depending on how fans took it.

    Clark hypothetically cheating was universally panned, so it was a hug, but you can tell they wanted it to be a kiss.

    In a medium of retcons and reboots and trying to use one another to correct each other, you can't even trust everything on the printed page. We're always doing some mental gymnastics to fix mistakes or correct aberrations.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-17-2021 at 08:23 PM.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  12. #3762
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    4,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Power Girl is a weird one because she's family, but not family. However, she's still *a* Kryptonian, still *a* El, and Clark only sees her at JLA/JSA Thanksgiving dinners. Karen isn't exactly Clark's family but she's awfully damn close, yet he has a better relationship with Bizarro. I give Clark a free pass here because of Karen's multiversal origins (which is why I didn't list her as an example before) but she certainly doesn't prove that Clark is *good* with family, either.
    Or she's the cousin you talk to amiably, but each of you do your own thing most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    You can say Harley Quinn, we all know that's her raison d'Ítre.
    Wait... I thought it was Batman? O-o'

  13. #3763
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    28,979

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Kara has been left with foster parents, Amazons, and Lex Luthor (depending on the continuity). After losing everything else in her life, a kid unaware of earth culture and custom, and her only surviving family member leaves her with people he barely knows (admittedly the Lex thing was against his wishes and Matrix doesn't *totally* count, but still).
    The only one of these that I'd say is objectionable was Lex and as you said, that was beyond his control. Clark wasn't in a position to raise Kara himself. The thing with the Amazons is weird due to Jeph Loeb but Clark did know about them through Diana.

    Power Girl is a weird one because she's family, but not family. However, she's still *a* Kryptonian, still *a* El, and Clark only sees her at JLA/JSA Thanksgiving dinners. Karen isn't exactly Clark's family but she's awfully damn close, yet he has a better relationship with Bizarro. I give Clark a free pass here because of Karen's multiversal origins (which is why I didn't list her as an example before) but she certainly doesn't prove that Clark is *good* with family, either.
    For most of Power Girl's life, neither she nor Clark even knew if she was a Kryptonian. They did start spending time together when her origin wa settled.

    Conner, yeah he wasn't Clark's clone at first but he wears the "S" and is a young, naÔve kid in need of guidance. Clark still dumps the kid off on someone else rather than deal with it.
    Clark didn't dump the kid on someone else because he was never his responsibility, at least until they found out he was cloned from Clark. Kon was initially just a science experiment who wore Clark's symbol.

    Chris, yeah I suppose we can say Clark did okay by that kid. I don't remember the details enough to really judge. It was written by Johns though, so there's no doubt in my mind this wasn't intentional character growth as much as Johns just not understanding Clark's history and character (I like Johns, but he doesn't write a good Superman in my book).
    I don't what would be objectionable about this depiction here. Even if you want to argue he didn't handle the Kara and Kon things well, that is very different from raising a child you chose to adopt.

  14. #3764
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,729

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    You can say Harley Quinn, we all know that's her raison d'Ítre.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Wait... I thought it was Batman? O-o'
    It's multiple characters honestly. And I'm not just talking about the Injustice film or Titans. This has been going on for around 10 years now
    The J-man

  15. #3765
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    2,131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    You can say Harley Quinn, we all know that's her raison d'Ítre.
    Let's not forget Hal too.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •