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  1. #1366
    Maintaining Status Q _Feely_'s Avatar
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    After a recent re-read for a podcast recording and with a gap of almost 3 decades since last, I've come to the conclusion that COIE is an utter hot mess and only a gun to my head could pursuade me to ever again consider trawling through what was an absolute chore-fest

    TL;DR = Wow, didn't realise how much COIE sucked. My rose-tinted specs are going in the bin.
    Last edited by _Feely_; 10-11-2019 at 03:39 PM.

  2. #1367
    Retired
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    I never knew my ability to read comic books and get a lot out of them was a super-power, but apparently it is. I must be a mutant.

  3. #1368
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Feely_ View Post
    After a recent re-read for a podcast recording and with a gap of almost 3 decades since last, I've come to the conclusion that COIE is an utter hot mess and only a gun to my head could pursuade my to ever consider trawling through what was an absolute chore-fest

    TL;DR = Wow, didn't realise how much COIE sucked. My rose-tinted specs are going in the bin.
    It's only redeeming feature is the artwork. As a story itself it sucks, and its impact/legacy is even worse.

  4. #1369
    Maintaining Status Q _Feely_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's only redeeming feature is the artwork. As a story itself it sucks, and its impact/legacy is even worse.
    I have notes I wrote that read, "I've entirely lost the plot of what's going on". Like a metaphor for life.

    On the flipside, I finally finished All Star B&R.

    I loved every insane second of it.

  5. #1370
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Feely_ View Post
    I have notes I wrote that read, "I've entirely lost the plot of what's going on". Like a metaphor for life.

    On the flipside, I finally finished All Star B&R.

    I loved every insane second of it.
    It is certainly far more entertaining, albeit not for the reasons Miller intended.

    I think the first few issues of COIE were about tuning forks or something. It was pretty bad.

  6. #1371
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Honestly COIE was fine. DC just needed to plan better whivh is a constant issue with them.

  7. #1372
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Honestly COIE was fine. DC just needed to plan better whivh is a constant issue with them.
    Yeah, but even with that the intended goal of COIE was pretty questionable. Things really weren't that confusing before it came about.
    I think DC's trend of chucking their history and the long term continuity problems that result really start there.

  8. #1373
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    Blaming COIE for DC's current problems is just refusing to hold current management accountable for their mistakes.

    Frank Miller's work was always bigoted and problematic. It just became more obvious over time as his writing skills deteriorated.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-11-2019 at 10:13 PM.

  9. #1374
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Blaming COIE for DC's current problems is just refusing to hold current management accountable for their mistakes.
    No it isn't. At all.
    Both sets of managements have plenty of mistakes worth complaining about. Nobody is saying the current management is absolved of their mistakes, or that they aren't worse in their own way. But trends were established by that reboot that the company and characters have been unable to completely escape, and we'd have been better off without it.

  10. #1375
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    No it isn't. At all.
    Both sets of managements have plenty of mistakes worth complaining about. Nobody is saying the current management is absolved of their mistakes, or that they aren't worse in their own way. But trends were established by that reboot that the company and characters have been unable to completely escape, and we'd have been better off without it.
    That's the vibe I keep getting every time someone brings up COIE's flaws especially in this thread. And I don't think it is a coincidence that a lot of these criticisms of post crisis tend to come from fans of the New 52.

  11. #1376
    DARKSEID LAUGHS... Crazy Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Blaming COIE for DC's current problems is just refusing to hold current management accountable for their mistakes.

    Frank Miller's work was always bigoted and problematic. It just became more obvious over time as his writing skills deteriorated.
    I don't remember bigotry in the Martha Washington books. Or Ronin.

  12. #1377
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    I'm willing to give 5G a genuine shot if it's real. It sounds extremely ambiguous in terms of it's scope, and I'd honestly like to see how they go about all of this.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  13. #1378
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That's the vibe I keep getting every time someone brings up COIE's flaws especially in this thread. And I don't think it is a coincidence that a lot of these criticisms of post crisis tend to come from fans of the New 52.
    Well I always thought it was a bit hypocritical that fans lashed against the New 52 but a lot of them defended COIE and the post-Crisis canon when it did pretty much the same thing to Pre-COIE and its fans.

    COIE and its aftermath were better executed and planned overall (though that's damning with faint praise) but I wouldn't be surprised if the precedent it established played a role in the decision to pull the trigger on Flashpoint. You can't do it once and be surprised if it happens again. Both sets of reboots caused long term problems, and it's not like anything good that came out of them couldn't have happened in some form (or exactly the same) in Pre-COIE history. The current management did a poor job of making it better in addition to many of their own faults, but they didn't create the initial tangled mess that broke the DCU.

  14. #1379
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Well I always thought it was a bit hypocritical that fans lashed against the New 52 but a lot of them defended COIE and the post-Crisis canon when it did pretty much the same thing to Pre-COIE and its fans.

    COIE and its aftermath were better executed and planned overall (though that's damning with faint praise) but I wouldn't be surprised if the precedent it established played a role in the decision to pull the trigger on Flashpoint. You can't do it once and be surprised if it happens again. Both sets of reboots caused long term problems, and it's not like anything good that came out of them couldn't have happened in some form (or exactly the same) in Pre-COIE history. The current management did a poor job of making it better in addition to many of their own faults, but they didn't create the initial tangled mess that broke the DCU.
    POST COIE we got Byrne's Superman, Perez's Wonder Woman and Frank Miller's Batman Year One. A lot of great things came out of it, and the updates worked. A few tweaks here and there, like Zero Hour, but the new universe was working. I don't think New 52 was needed or successful. So I don't feel hypocritical to say I liked COIE and it's reboot but did not like New 52.
    I do agree that rebooting once made it easier to do it again, but that doesn't meant it was a good idea.

  15. #1380
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    POST COIE we got Byrne's Superman, Perez's Wonder Woman and Frank Miller's Batman Year One. A lot of great things came out of it, and the updates worked. A few tweaks here and there, like Zero Hour, but the new universe was working. I don't think New 52 was needed or successful. So I don't feel hypocritical to say I liked COIE and it's reboot but did not like New 52.
    I do agree that rebooting once made it easier to do it again, but that doesn't meant it was a good idea.
    Of the Trinity reboots, IMO the only one that has stood the test of time for the most part is Miller's Batman because it holds up the most on a craft level and implemented the fewest changes (and I don't even like it that much). Perez's Wonder Woman has great stuff mixed in with some so-so stuff and outright bad ideas, and Byrne's Superman is just godawful altogether with the exception of allowing Maggie Sawyer to be created. I know all of these were extremely popular at the time and still have devoted fans and are viewed as classics, but I think the stranglehold they have on the characters (especially Superman) are detrimental in the long run. It's not just because they are old comics from the 80s either. TDKR, Watchmen and the proto Vertigo stuff were coming out around the same time and hold up far better.

    Changes and updates can work within the confines of established continuity, and it would have been better to do so in the long run if they had. The Multiverse was not confusing, that was just a scapegoat they used to pull the trigger and get attention/sales boost. The few good things that came out of those revamps could have happened in the Pre-COIE history. Superman was already heading in some of those directions anyway, it would have been cleaner and wouldn't have resulted in the convoluted situations with Supergirl and the Legion. Donna Troy was ruined forever.

    I think it's fair to claim the New 52 as a whole was a bad idea. I think it was as well despite liking a few things from it. But I think it's also fair to say COIE was a bad idea. I have some favorite runs and stories from before that event that got altered or outright erased in the name of a sales boost, and it rankles. Like it's kind of annoying to read "Who is Donna Troy?", the greatest Donna issue ever published, and know it's gonna get erased a few issues later for something worse. It interrupts the flow of a story right in the middle of it. That's bad writing.

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