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  1. #3466
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Final Crisis is not nearly as confusing as people make it out to be. It just requires more attentive reading.
    I've come around to thinking this way on Morrison's stuff in general. Years ago I used to think they were overrated and too difficult to follow, then something clicked and I love most of their stuff now. There are still cases where they get too self indulgent in making things confusing at first glance, but like you say just re-reading it more closely can be rewarding.

    It makes it more interesting than most of what is published at DC/Marvel.

  2. #3467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But why should they if those characters are still dominating the sales after 80+ years.

    The sales of the replacements might go up, but would they met the ones of the originals on the long run, or even increase the sales overall?
    And when you start ageing the characters you will have to retire the replacements too eventually.
    And you might make that work one or two times, but once you are on the third or fourth or so incarnation there will be diminishing returns at some point.

    It makes from business perspective just no sense to permanently retire an successful character, to push a less successful one.
    I'm talking from an artistic perspective. Allowing heroes to age and retire can allow newer heroes to get attention.

  3. #3468
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I think my Harley Quinn comparison works fine. I never implied a romance between Power Girl and Superman. My point is that her origin rellies on a top 3 famous hero whom everyone knows, even though she herself is not essential to his stories. Post origin Kara's stories have nothing to do with Clark (from what I've read of her) and she has her own separate name and cast of characters. Once the connection between Harley Quinn and Joker was established, her story in the movies and tv show was totally disengaged from him. He appeared, but he wasn't essential. Same thing is true of Power Girl. You only need to know her origin if you want to, because her stories barely mention Clark.

    She's not a legacy character whatsoever.
    I agree with the caveat that Tanya has become her legacy. Karen created the PG persona as a way of dodging becoming a legacy. That said, I don't think you can make a Harley/Joker comparison and not involve her love of him. That's like trying to talk about Alferd without his relationship to the Bat family.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
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    Truer words never spoken.

  4. #3469
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Yeah, it really doesn't. I can buy your argument that PG might not fit the definition of a legacy the way that someone like Stargirl or Robin do. But your contention that Power Girl is off the rails. I can see an argument that both broke loose from the shadow of an iconic figure, but Power Girl was created as breaking loose, while Harley Quinn was created as an incidental henchwoman, with the breaking loose thing getting bolted on way later in her existence. And that's before we even get around to the difference between overprotective mentoring versus abusive and icky exploitation.

    Power Girl was intended as an expression of feminist empower for her time. Candidly, some trying to pass that torch onto Harley does not speak of a healthy view of feminism.
    the reason I mentioned Power Girl at all is that she was created as an alternate universe analogue of Supergirl who wore a different costume and had a different codename. Yeah "Karen Starr" is simply the name Kara Zor-L lets Humans call her. Much like how Kal-El gets called Clark Kent. Like you said, she's a version of Supergirl who's more assertive and aggressive about using her powers.

  5. #3470
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm talking from an artistic perspective. Allowing heroes to age and retire can allow newer heroes to get attention.
    This is what made Batman Beyond and MC2 great, you had young heroes in the center stage, but you also had the older heroes around somewhere....

  6. #3471
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    the reason I mentioned Power Girl at all is that she was created as an alternate universe analogue of Supergirl who wore a different costume and had a different codename. Yeah "Karen Starr" is simply the name Kara Zor-L lets Humans call her. Much like how Kal-El gets called Clark Kent. Like you said, she's a version of Supergirl who's more assertive and aggressive about using her powers.
    First, what you're responding to is something that wasn't directed at you (unless you changed your alias). So it doesn't actually shore up whatever point you were making.

    Second, Bullpuckey. Any attempt to equate Power Girl and Harley Quinn in a discussion of legacy (which is the point to which I was responding) is hopelessly flawed.

  7. #3472
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    This is what made Batman Beyond and MC2 great, you had young heroes in the center stage, but you also had the older heroes around somewhere....
    Exactly. Aging doesn't mean they'll die in 2 years. Especially those with delayed aging powers. It just brings characters into a new perspective

  8. #3473
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Jay Garrick should have a chin strap to keep his helmet from flying off.
    Greenlight the Smallville animated series, WB!

  9. #3474
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    First, what you're responding to is something that wasn't directed at you (unless you changed your alias). So it doesn't actually shore up whatever point you were making.

    Second, Bullpuckey. Any attempt to equate Power Girl and Harley Quinn in a discussion of legacy (which is the point to which I was responding) is hopelessly flawed.
    Ummm you seem confused....Soo........
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Yeah I agree with Mik on this issue. Legacies have never made it hard to adapt characters
    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    *points at Powergirl*

    Please, continue your train of thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Power Girl isn't a legacy character. She is to Superman what Harley Quinn is to Joker. And although there are other Power Girls, none have anything to do with Kara herself.
    You replied to someone who was replying to what I said.

    My assertation is that Powergirl is an alt-u version of a legacy character that was slightly re-invented to make her different from Supergirl. Sooo if she's technically not a legacy character she's worse, as she's TWO steps removed from the original and not just one.

  10. #3475
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    Why is that worse?

  11. #3476
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why is that worse?
    Because her status as a character from a different universe adds that much more to the amount of time and effort required to explain her backstory.... and she's still Superman's cousin.

  12. #3477
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    While I admittedly find DC confusing in general, I went cross-eyed when I read that Power Girl is similar to Harley Quinn.

    Um, how?

  13. #3478
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    While I admittedly find DC confusing in general, I went cross-eyed when I read that Power Girl is similar to Harley Quinn.

    Um, how?
    Only in an "adjacent but not derivative" manner. They're not Supergirl or Jokerette, essentially. Any further thinking breaks it down in my mind.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  14. #3479
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Because her status as a character from a different universe adds that much more to the amount of time and effort required to explain her backstory.... and she's still Superman's cousin.
    I still don't get why that's bad. It's like having a past beyond the cliche origin story is somehow bad

  15. #3480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I still don't get why that's bad. It's like having a past beyond the cliche origin story is somehow bad
    As a rule, the more words it takes to describe, the weaker the brand (including characters).

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