Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Rightoya]

Mine is having wonder woman superman level in power, instead of golden age level(with regular Amazon's captain America level). There is a reason she had a invisible jet to fly, and gauntlets and shields to block things, and swords and her tiara for weapons, and her lasso to bound. Not even mentioning the fact that she is a bad ass fighter who could kick any bodies ass even without her powers.

Right, let's go back to the Golden Age where Wonder Woman was not Superman level in power:





We all know that just some modern writers like this Marston came up with the crazy idea to give Wonder Woman the same level like Superman in terms of power:

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.”
― William Moulton Marston, 1943

[Laufeyson]

Right, let's go back to the Golden Age where Wonder Woman was not Superman level in power:





We all know that only some modern writers like this Marston came up with the crazy idea to give Wonder Woman the same level like Superman in terms of power:

“Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.”
― William Moulton Marston, 1943

Seconded this.

[OopsIdiditagain]

The idea of characters "cluttering up" the DCU is preposterous given how long the comics have been running. There is no such thing as clutter when building a large shared universe and the only time this argument comes up is when people want to get rid of characters they don't like.

And judging a character's popularity by how well they sell in a comic is a mistake given comics in general have been circling the drain for decades.

Certain franchises work well with loads of characters and others don't. GL isn't really cluttering because the story is on a galactic scale. But something like batman is definitely adding way to many sidekicks for a streetlevel city based story.

[Gaius]

Legacy Characters as a stable of DC is kind of an overrated concept and don't really think it's true on closer inspection. It works for Flash but I can't say I've ever really considered GL a traditional legacy character, and the attempts at trying to say this is a part of other big name characters at DC (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Green Arrow) always rings rather hollow to me. Especially as the attempts when they were tried out there were intended to be temporary or not well received.

And in the case of the Robin title, I'd say having so many of them around has ultimately lessened the title itself. If there's another Robin after Damian, it officially gets ridiculous.

[phantom1592]

Legacy Characters as a stable of DC is kind of an overrated concept and don't really think it's true on closer inspection. It works for Flash but I can't say I've ever really considered GL a traditional legacy character, and the attempts at trying to say this is a part of other big name characters at DC (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Green Arrow) always rings rather hollow to me. Especially as the attempts when they were tried out there were intended to be temporary or not well received.

And in the case of the Robin title, I'd say having so many of them around has ultimately lessened the title itself.

Agreed. If anything I woudl say 'Legacy' doesn't really work. In the 90's DC was about replacing the dead characters and not ressurecting them. It was something a bit different than marvel who never actually 'kills' their characters. But now that DC has jumped on the bandwagon of 'nobody is really dead'... the Legacy stopped meaning anything.

And yeah.... Robin went from an actual hero and partner... to a 'training program' that your expected to age out of whether you want to or not.

[PCN24454]

Legacy Characters as a stable of DC is kind of an overrated concept and don't really think it's true on closer inspection. It works for Flash but I can't say I've ever really considered GL a traditional legacy character, and the attempts at trying to say this is a part of other big name characters at DC (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Aquaman, Green Arrow) always rings rather hollow to me. Especially as the attempts when they were tried out there were intended to be temporary or not well received.

And in the case of the Robin title, I'd say having so many of them around has ultimately lessened the title itself. If there's another Robin after Damian, it officially gets ridiculous.

They would work a lot better if the characters were allowed to age and progress.

[SiegePerilous02]

And in the case of the Robin title, I'd say having so many of them around has ultimately lessened the title itself. If there's another Robin after Damian, it officially gets ridiculous.

And yeah.... Robin went from an actual hero and partner... to a 'training program' that your expected to age out of whether you want to or not.

The Robin mantle being Batman's Internship Program instead of being an identity unique to and intrinsically tied to Dick Grayson has done more damage to his character than Batman sticking around and being ageless ever could.

The identity should have been retired in main comic canon once he became Nightwing. Whatever has been done with the other characters who wore the mantle, the desire to pass it on was borne from an out of universe reason (needing to keep the brand iconography alive) rather than an in universe one.

[Frontier]

I mean, Robin's not really an internship program but it's an identity tied so much to being Batman's partner and to being a young hero that I think it's understandable that a character would eventually age out of it and move on.

[SiegePerilous02]

I mean, Robin's not really an internship program but it's an identity tied so much to being Batman's partner and to being a young hero that I think it's understandable that a character would eventually age out of it and move on.

Dick aging out of it and moving on isn't really the problem.

The identity passing onto so many other people of the same archetype to the point where both it and Dick are a bit diluted, and the identity belongs more to Batman than to him, is the problem. Batman didn't really need another Robin after Dick.

[Frontier]

Dick aging out of it and moving on isn't really the problem.

The identity passing onto so many other people of the same archetype to the point where both it and Dick are a bit diluted, and the identity belongs more to Batman than to him, is the problem. Batman didn't really need another Robin after Dick.

I think too much is like if it were eight or so people in a quick succession of time but each Robin has had a tenure and brought something to the table, which is why they all have fans. Subsequent stories of Batman with Robin kind of indicate that, one way or another, he needed a Robin after Dick and Dick is usually shown to be the one with final word on a main new Robin (aside from Steph).

I don't really see how it dilutes Dick when he set the bar and has already moved on from it.

[Gaius]

They would work a lot better if the characters were allowed to age and progress.

That's the thing though, I'm not interested long-term in stuff like that. Connor or Jon as Superman, Cassie as Wonder Woman, or whoever as Batman doesn't do anything for me.

Agreed. If anything I woudl say 'Legacy' doesn't really work. In the 90's DC was about replacing the dead characters and not ressurecting them. It was something a bit different than marvel who never actually 'kills' their characters. But now that DC has jumped on the bandwagon of 'nobody is really dead'... the Legacy stopped meaning anything.

And yeah.... Robin went from an actual hero and partner... to a 'training program' that your expected to age out of whether you want to or not.

The Robin mantle being Batman's Internship Program instead of being an identity unique to and intrinsically tied to Dick Grayson has done more damage to his character than Batman sticking around and being ageless ever could.

The identity should have been retired in main comic canon once he became Nightwing. Whatever has been done with the other characters who wore the mantle, the desire to pass it on was borne from an out of universe reason (needing to keep the brand iconography alive) rather than an in universe one.

Yeah, if they wanted to keep the Robin title relevant, should have just made a series perpetually set in the past or have Dick just keep the title even when he makes the costume change.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think too much is like if it were eight or so people in a quick succession of time but each Robin has had a tenure and brought something to the table, which is why they all have fans. Subsequent stories of Batman with Robin kind of indicate that, one way or another, he needed a Robin after Dick and Dick is usually shown to be the one with final word on a main new Robin (aside from Steph).

I don't really see how it dilutes Dick when he set the bar and has already moved on from it.

In my opinion, the subsequent stories didn't really prove Batman needs a Robin. In fact, the need for one so he doesn't go off the deep end actually makes him look worse and didn't do him any favors. It doesn't help that the need for another Robin emerged for reasons out of universe first and foremost (merchandizing) and they built scenarios in-universe to get to that point. And I know they all have fans, but personally I don't think Jason or Tim brought much to the table: DoTF is a horrible legacy that burdens Bruce with dead kid baggage, and Tim is just a bland placeholder. Damian works great as Dick's partner, but him and Bruce don't work as well together.

Dick isn't in good shape, and hasn't been for a while now. He can never entirely move on because Nightwing will never ever be as big of a deal as Robin was to him. Any success the Nightwing identity has is informed by the fact that it is "Robin grown up," it doesn't mean anything on its own. Even the name is kind of meaningless (Wolfman even said they used it because they couldn't come up with anything else). So him having the final word on who gets the mantle doesn't mean much, it just means whoever has it has the higher profile identity/brand than he does. Maybe Dick keeping the Robin identity as an adult (with a better costume) and leading the Titans would have benefited him more in the long run.

[SuperX]

That's the thing though, I'm not interested long-term in stuff like that. Connor or Jon as Superman, Cassie as Wonder Woman, or whoever as Batman doesn't do anything for me.



Yeah, if they wanted to keep the Robin title relevant, should have just made a series perpetually set in the past or have Dick just keep the title even when he makes the costume change.

As a HUGE fan of the YJ4 I do NOT have any desire to see them take mantles(besides in time hijinks stories only). I want them to be treated with respect and let to be real independent characters that I can enjoy at the age they are now

[Robanker]

The Robin mantle being Batman's Internship Program instead of being an identity unique to and intrinsically tied to Dick Grayson has done more damage to his character than Batman sticking around and being ageless ever could.

The identity should have been retired in main comic canon once he became Nightwing. Whatever has been done with the other characters who wore the mantle, the desire to pass it on was borne from an out of universe reason (needing to keep the brand iconography alive) rather than an in universe one.

I think it worked until Tim. Dick was the original and perfect son in the memories of pretty much everyone despite not actually being perfect. He made kid sidekicks look plausible and effective, however. Jason existed and died, becoming a reminder that not everyone can be a kid sidekick and that perhaps it was a fluke that Dick worked out at all. Tim shows up and becomes the good son who follows directions and becomes a different but effective Robin. It works if it stops there because so far you only had one person move on from being Robin. The other guy died and the current guy is Robin. Once Tim moves on and we get to Steph/Damian it's officially a clown car.

And I like Steph (as Spoiler or Batgirl, but I like her).

For what it's worth, though, Dick should be the final word on Robins. Bruce really should just work with them but they should all secretly want to prove themselves to Dick instead of Bruce, because Bruce never was Robin nor did he really experience the same things Dick did. He's the one they're emulating, so on some level he's the one they should measure up against. But no, it's just Batman's internship. Sucks.

[Frontier]

If anything devalues the Robin identity it was when all those kids were calling themselves Robin during WaR. It's why Damian hated them initially.

Yeah, if they wanted to keep the Robin title relevant, should have just made a series perpetually set in the past or have Dick just keep the title even when he makes the costume change.

Dick's character would be much weaker thematically if he kept being Robin indefinitely in my opinion.

In my opinion, the subsequent stories didn't really prove Batman needs a Robin. In fact, the need for one so he doesn't go off the deep end actually makes him look worse and didn't do him any favors. It doesn't help that the need for another Robin emerged for reasons out of universe first and foremost (merchandizing) and they built scenarios in-universe to get to that point. And I know they all have fans, but personally I don't think Jason or Tim brought much to the table: DoTF is a horrible legacy that burdens Bruce with dead kid baggage, and Tim is just a bland placeholder. Damian works great as Dick's partner, but him and Bruce don't work as well together.

Honestly I don't see the problem with out of universe reasoning for a story change because that happens all the time with licensed products, either to sell toys or because a network or editor demanded it. It's all on the writer to make it work and sell it to the audience, which can be debatable but not indefensible.

Even if there wasn't merchandising concerns people would probably want to write Batman with a partner again or give him a Robin-like characters to bounce off of, so why just maintain the facade and just cut to the chase to bring back Robin?

You can not like the characters but I think it's hard to dispute that Tim as Robin (who carried the longest Robin solo) and Jason as Robin and Red Hood brought something to the table considering their popularity and use in media.

Dick isn't in good shape, and hasn't been for a while now. He can never entirely move on because Nightwing will never ever be as big of a deal as Robin was to him. Any success the Nightwing identity has is informed by the fact that it is "Robin grown up," it doesn't mean anything on its own. Even the name is kind of meaningless (Wolfman even said they used it because they couldn't come up with anything else). So him having the final word on who gets the mantle doesn't mean much, it just means whoever has it has the higher profile identity/brand than he does. Maybe Dick keeping the Robin identity as an adult (with a better costume) and leading the Titans would have benefited him more in the long run.

I think Nightwing is just as big a deal as Robin even if it doesn't have the same name recognition. I don't see what's the problem with it being informed by "Robin grown up" since it's part of the core character conceit. Most actual stories with Robin and Nightwing have the Robin's defer to Dick and Robin is seen as being subservient to Batman so I don't think that makes a Robin bigger than Dick as Nightwing.

I feel like there's too many expectations and baggage from the Robin identity for Dick to continue calling himself that as an adult. It'd be like adult Wally or Roy going by Kid Flash and Speedy on a permanent basis.

I think it worked until Tim. Dick was the original and perfect son in the memories of pretty much everyone despite not actually being perfect. He made kid sidekicks look plausible and effective, however. Jason existed and died, becoming a reminder that not everyone can be a kid sidekick and that perhaps it was a fluke that Dick worked out at all. Tim shows up and becomes the good son who follows directions and becomes a different but effective Robin. It works if it stops there because so far you only had one person move on from being Robin. The other guy died and the current guy is Robin. Once Tim moves on and we get to Steph/Damian it's officially a clown car.

At least with Damian you have the anti-Robin and the inverted dynamic with Batman.

For what it's worth, though, Dick should be the final word on Robins. Bruce really should just work with them but they should all secretly want to prove themselves to Dick instead of Bruce, because Bruce never was Robin nor did he really experience the same things Dick did. He's the one they're emulating, so on some level he's the one they should measure up against. But no, it's just Batman's internship. Sucks.

I think Dick should definitely have an impact but I feel like it defeats the point if they don't have a significant relationship with Batman.

I feel like the identity is way more significant than an intership program. Nobody treats it like a job or a revolving door.