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  1. #3736
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Especially as I don't believe it was a source of angst for Connor in the comics the way it is for the show. Almost his entire arc in season 1 is related to being upset Clark is ignoring him.
    True. SB had no interest in being a "son" of Superman in his early years of the comics (and also wasn't actually a clone). He was happy being an emaciated minor, doing what he wanted, and having fun and hoping to be Superman one day (which I thought was at least time indicated as something he needed to grow out of and want to grow up to his own hero). When he did have a father figure, it was Dubbilex, but even that wasn't nearly as strong as something like Max and Bart. I miss old SB so much. When they did establish a familial connection between Superman and Superboy was when Superman gave him his name (Kon-El - which is always his "real" name instead of "Conner" for me, unlike Superman, who has "Clark" as the same he identifies as in versions I like best), it was as a cousin, not a son or brother. Superman showed up occasionally to give advice, but he was in no sense a daily presence and Kon never wanted him to be. Kara, on the other hand, did want to go live with Superman when she arrived on Earth in the silver age, as I recall, but Superman stuck her in an orphanage instead.

    WB/DC struggles with keeping Superman relevant for the younger generation, so presenting him as a stiff adult who hurts the feelings of the kid the audience connects with is going to make him look like the bad guy
    More than that, it's problematic to me because they made Batman the "good" parent, when he's been incredibly toxic to his kids in the comics. Normally seeing "good dad" Bruce would be cool, but not when it's just another chance to show off Batman's superiority to other heroes, especially Superman. Which is even more heavily played because of how much more involved Batman in with the entire team (assumably done because the character was already very popular and it would be a good audience draw).

  2. #3737
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Conner always felt like a younger brother (which YJ definitely leaned to by season 2).

  3. #3738
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I mean, of course, kids don't complain about it, this is their introduction to the character. This is what is going to colour their perception of the character and for most this is how they are going to see the character for the rest of their lives probably.

    I accepted DCAU versions of Wonder Woman, Shade, Cheetah and Sinestro when I first watched them because I had no other reference point for those characters but now that I know more about those characters, I can see how they could have been done better and in which areas those versions fell short. I feel the same way about YJ version of Wally West.

    Now fans having trouble accepting different versions of the characters...again, it largely come down to preference and first impressions.

    I do think that older fans have this subconscious fear that newer fans will see what they deem as the 'wrong' versions of the character and that's how the characters will be defined forever. The fear is warranted hence why you have 'Hank Pym wife beater' or Scarlet Witch being forever defined by HoM'.




    I still like the 'Clark is who I am' quote. I mean, for all he knew, he was Clark Kent until whichever age Johnathan and Martha told him about the ship.

    Though I guess as an adult today, it would be more like 'Clark, Kal, Superman, they're all me'.



    Seconding this. This pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.
    In the context of a young Clark on the cusp of no longer feeling like an alien, I can see it as a knee-jerk reaction but this sounds like something he'd get past pretty quick.

    Unless he was also having adventures with the Legion when he was young, in which case it just never makes sense.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-14-2021 at 04:23 PM.
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  4. #3739
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    I like the idea of Pete Ross becoming President in the DC universe.

  5. #3740
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    I like the idea of Pete Ross becoming President in the DC universe.
    I like silver-age, truly, really good Pete (and I'm not even a silver age Supes fan). I like the idea of him ending up happy. I don't how like every version of him that's been revisited since is somehow flawed, less of good friend, less of a good man, less of an achiever, second-choice husband (the worst), etc. Seems like every version since had made him a least a bit of a loser as an adult (even when he has high political office). And the ones that rewrite youth make him less good (or even bad) there, too. But, I certainly admit I haven't read every single version of him since.

  6. #3741
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I didn't say it would turn people against him. More that it wouldn't do much to endear people to him in the first place.

    Younger audiences aren't complaining about the portrayal, but how many of them are really excited about him in the show? He's just a recurring guest and I doubt any of them care one way or the other about Clark's perspective the way you lay it out. To them he's probably just a jerk to Superboy until he's not, and they move on.
    With all due respect, this feels like a great deal of projecting on your part and you kind of seem to be moving the goal posts here.

    Never mind that endearing audiences to Superman should not be the main goal of a Young Justice show.

  7. #3742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    In the context of a young Clark on the cusp of no longer feeling like an alien, I can see it as a knee-jerk reaction but this sounds like something he'd get past pretty quick.

    Unless he was also having adventures with the Legion when he was young, in which case it just never makes sense.
    Why would being older make him less likely to fell violated by having his DNA abused?

    What does having adventures with the Legion have to do with this?

  8. #3743
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With all due respect, this feels like a great deal of projecting on your part and you kind of seem to be moving the goal posts here.

    Never mind that endearing audiences to Superman should not be the main goal of a Young Justice show.
    As much as it makes sense to me that YJ Superman is generally terrible / a joke until season 3, I'm still not happy about it.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  9. #3744
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    As much as it makes sense to me that YJ Superman is generally terrible / a joke until season 3, I'm still not happy about it.
    Well, I'm sorry to hear that but I'm afraid your opinion about him being a joke is largely in the minority.

  10. #3745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It wasn't really an opinion so much as a collage of Hoechlin scenes in Supergirl.
    Which, knowing the type of people on that site, was very likely overblown and taken out of context.

    The idea that Clark being supportive of his young cousin can be remotely seen as a bad thing is precisely what I was talking about when I said the Superman fandom has a serious toxic masculinity problem.

    Well, it sets a precedent.
    There's precedent for Clark's behavior in season 1 as well.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-15-2021 at 12:52 AM.

  11. #3746
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With all due respect, this feels like a great deal of projecting on your part and you kind of seem to be moving the goal posts here.

    Never mind that endearing audiences to Superman should not be the main goal of a Young Justice show.
    So Clark isn't in the wrong for feeling how he feels, but his perspective doesn't matter anyway because it's not the main goal of the show? Isn't that kind of moving the goal posts yourself?

  12. #3747
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With all due respect, this feels like a great deal of projecting on your part and you kind of seem to be moving the goal posts here.

    Never mind that endearing audiences to Superman should not be the main goal of a Young Justice show.
    It's a bad look for a character whose supposed to be a paragon of virtue.

    Superman can have flaws and doubts, just....not that.

    And I disagree on the idea that it's not the shows job to endear Superman to a younger generation especially when the show did a lot to endear Batman to audiences from the basketball scene with Dick Grayson to the scene where he explains why he allowed Dick to be Robin. The adult heroes are meant to be authority figures and role models for the younger heroes.

  13. #3748
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So Clark isn't in the wrong for feeling how he feels, but his perspective doesn't matter anyway because it's not the main goal of the show? Isn't that kind of moving the goal posts yourself?
    I was talking about the whole endearing not endearing thing. It feels odd to me to be so worried about this show making Superman look like a jerk to viewers yet site the lack of complaints as proof they dislike him. Trust me, if this show was doing any significant damage to Superman's reputation among young viewers, we would know.

  14. #3749
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    It's a bad look for a character whose supposed to be a paragon of virtue.

    Superman can have flaws and doubts, just....not that.
    Why is this flaw one he shouldn't have?

    It's not like they made Clark an abuser, an adulterer or sex addict. At worst, they had him be realistically uncomfortable about a situation that anyone else would realistically be trouble accepting. If we can't have Superman be rightfully upset when his DNA is misused without his knowledge or consent, then what flaws should he have that are acceptable?

    I just don't think YJ Superman is anywhere near the most offensive portrayal of Superman.


    And I disagree on the idea that it's not the shows job to endear Superman to a younger generation especially when the show did a lot to endear Batman to audiences from the basketball scene with Dick Grayson to the scene where he explains why he allowed Dick to be Robin. The adult heroes are meant to be authority figures and role models for the younger heroes.
    In fairness, they are also shown to be very flawed in their own right, including Batman. See season 3. You could say it was Batman's turn there after Superman was shown as flawed in season 1.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-15-2021 at 09:10 AM.

  15. #3750
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    And I disagree on the idea that it's not the shows job to endear Superman to a younger generation especially when the show did a lot to endear Batman to audiences from the basketball scene with Dick Grayson to the scene where he explains why he allowed Dick to be Robin. The adult heroes are meant to be authority figures and role models for the younger heroes.
    And said adult figure is an important part of one of the main characters' arcs for the first season, yet barely gets any screen time and when he does it's to show how hurt Connor is by his rejection and having another adult (Batman) tell him to get over it. So if we're meant to sympathize with how uncomfortable Clark is by the situation, maybe some more scenes could have helped with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I was talking about the whole endearing not endearing thing. It feels odd to me to be so worried about this show making Superman look like a jerk to viewers yet site the lack of complaints as proof they dislike him. Trust me, if this show was doing any significant damage to Superman's reputation among young viewers, we would know.
    But like you say, he's not the main focus of the show and younger viewers aren't going to blast their positive or negative opinions and debate this 24/7 they way obsessed nerds do. Nobody is saying it's the worst depiction of him ever or that it's turning the younger viewers away from him en masse or that they'd stay that way. But the writing is flawed and you're not exactly siting any evidence that younger viewers are seeing the nuances of his side the way you do either. Especially as the show has other characters like Batman saying that his rejection of Connor is wrong.

    It's also not exactly helped by teenage Roy Harper accepting the existence of his clone much more gracefully in the span of a few minutes, which it takes adult Superman until the season finale to come around
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 10-15-2021 at 11:51 AM.

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