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  1. #3031
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Titans has better comedic characters than him.
    As the straight man?

  2. #3032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I probably worded it too strongly and I'm not saying it can't be both, it just seems the ones I've come across are just more upset their favorite lost the title but use Babs no longer being paralyzed as way to make their personal tastes into an objective argument.
    I think fans were upset that Cass got tossed and buried long before Babs took back her old gig.

    Babs as Batgirl is not the issue. It's Cass being called toxic and edited out of books that was the issue. It's not like Cass didn't have an old ID or could have gotten a new gig while Babs was Batgirl.

    Folks use Cyborg's dismemberment to justify NOT improve his looks or being more than man vs machine. "He has to look like that because it's his ICONIC look! Everybody has to have their iconic look!"

    Static has changed his look 3 different times.
    We won't even LOOK in the closets of Miles Morales and Peter Parker.
    I don't see Falcon running around in that red and white one piece with his chest showing anymore.
    Wonder Woman is not walking around dressed like Lynda Carter.
    How many looks has Supergirl had?

    Yet Cyborg has to look that way DESPITE Doom Patrol Cyborg walking around looking like a castoff from Run DMC or LL Cool J video or Def Jam Fight For New York character.

  3. #3033
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    I think I've distilled my issue with mainsteam comic book writers in relation to mangaka. comic book writers (particularly at DC) are almost normalized to writing like fans of their medium instead of actually storytellers. that, to me, it seems like what leads to comic book writers echoing the same love/hate relationship with the medium the fans are susceptible to.

    it's this weird dichotomy where they're either romanticizing the old tropes or concepts and telling us how much we should love them, or they're weirdly ashamed of the medium and fall into this Nolan/Zack Snyder zone where they are "making it cool". instead of a good story it ends up feeling like a mix of recycled mediocrity and parlor tricks strung together to hedge their bets on a "story that sells", rather than just producing good content that people wanna pay for.

    I compare them to mangaka, mostly because that's my point of reference for graphic media tbh, but also because I noticed that because they typically aren't writing characters they are fans of or grew up on, they use their characters more holistically in service of their story. their personality, their powers or abilities, their design, etc are invoked in service to that character's role in the story they inhabit; they're not breaking consistency just because the writer doesn't get the purpose of this element or that element. A characters power and the rules and applications aren't just stuff they do, it informs how the characte is styled (at all times) how they behave, how they interact; it all informs each other and a world is built around that same holistic mentality. comics often lack that depth with their characters and story elements because they have to cliff notes it to make it easy for the next guy.

    like, i get that the generational storytelling by committee conceit of mainstream comics means that the writers require more creativity when trying to deal with the characters in a compelling way, but, instead of exercising finesse a lot of writers do what readers do and go "well Bronze Tiger's in it because I like Bronze Tiger, even though I'm only really a "fan" of like one or two ideas about Bronze Tiger. so anything else involving him that I don't like is a mistake" and start making contrived ways of contort the characters (and the story) into whatever mediocre lowest common denominator thing they end up with.

    hmmm... not really controversial, just a grievance I guess. it's weird tho, I'm saying this at a time where I'm the most excited about DC comics as I've ever been. hmm
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 03-05-2021 at 11:51 PM.
    SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist! his fandom wikia
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  4. #3034
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    Here's my opinion: Despite agreeing with much of what lemonpeace said, "creatives are ashamed of comic books" is not and never has been a valid criticism. It's essentially a non-argument rooted in "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

  5. #3035
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's my opinion: Despite agreeing with much of what lemonpeace said, "creatives are ashamed of comic books" is not and never has been a valid criticism. It's essentially a non-argument rooted in "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
    Ok.how do you explain xmen and bryan singer movies(first ones)?It's not like the leather suits where comfortable.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  6. #3036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    As the straight man?
    Damian isn't a straight man, he's more of an instigator.

  7. #3037
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's my opinion: Despite agreeing with much of what lemonpeace said, "creatives are ashamed of comic books" is not and never has been a valid criticism. It's essentially a non-argument rooted in "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
    ah ha! I disagree; controversial after all!

    edit:
    but I'll gonna explain myself a little. I was using the "ashame" and "romantic" part as extremes to frame the spectrum where I feel the problems I have with DC usually reside.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 03-06-2021 at 01:08 AM.
    SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist! his fandom wikia
    I support militant Professor X
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    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

  8. #3038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's my opinion: Despite agreeing with much of what lemonpeace said, "creatives are ashamed of comic books" is not and never has been a valid criticism. It's essentially a non-argument rooted in "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
    I do sometimes get the feeling that it can come off that way when it comes to some comic book writers, to varying extents and intensities.

    And now that I think about it, there are times when it comes off like some readers and fans are like that, where they generally (or at the more worse moments, ostensibly) enjoy the medium and conventions of (superhero, but not necessarily/not always) comics, but also end up having caveats, where they feel the need to apologize and/or justify for and/or fix and/or surreptitiously (if not brunt and brusquely) omit certain things, characters, and aspects that they don't like or that they feel isn't liked or cool from a mainstream perspective, etc., for example.

    At times, it can often come down to perspectives and personal preferences. But often still it can come off as feeling, if it doesn't end up as outright being, a very specific look or takeaway that often ends up being narrow and rigid.
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 03-06-2021 at 01:46 AM.

  9. #3039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Just off the top of my head:

    * The (mis)handling of politics.

    * Discussion regarding Roy's drug addiction.

    * A lack of variety in skill sets (most of the supporting cast doesn't have to be archers).

    * Proper fleshing out of locations.

    * A well developed rogues gallery.
    In regards to the bold, I'm actually good with that being a thing for them.
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 03-07-2021 at 04:37 PM.

  10. #3040
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I actually liked the Strength and Sage Forces. It added to the Flash mythos without having to rely in more Speedsters.
    Agreed, plus the Still Force for me. In fact, that's why I love the expansion of the Emotional Spectrum, too, and the expansion of the Force Energy concept does the same thing. I think it's brilliant, both of them.

  11. #3041
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Damian isn't a straight man, he's more of an instigator.
    He's a straight man because the funny moments happen to him since he's so serious. Same with Bruce in the League.

  12. #3042
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    1. All non superpowered superheroes should wear body armor.
    2. The more invulnerable a super is the less clothing they would wear.
    3. Armor doesn’t really make much sense for invulnerable heroes because anything powerful enough to hurt them isn’t going to be stopped by armor.
    4. Characters with force fields should still wear armor and clothing unless it is stated that the force field offers temperature control.


  13. #3043
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    1. All non superpowered superheroes should wear body armor.
    2. The more invulnerable a super is the less clothing they would wear.
    3. Armor doesn’t really make much sense for invulnerable heroes because anything powerful enough to hurt them isn’t going to be stopped by armor.
    4. Characters with force fields should still wear armor and clothing unless it is stated that the force field offers temperature control.

    agreed! this is part of what I was talking about, about comics not taking a thoughtful holistic approach. these writer a lot of the time see the powers as an afterthought, "shiny wrapping", so they don't put the creative thought necessary into how it should play off design and personality.
    SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist! his fandom wikia
    I support militant Professor X
    • Manga: One Piece, My Hero, Mashle, Tokyo Revengers, Jujutsu Kaisen, GoH, Black Clover
    • DC: Other History of DC, Second Son, Gotham: Urban Legends
    • Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-books
    • Anticipated titles: MrM Source of Freedom, Static*, Hardware*, Naomi s2, FS Gotham
    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

  14. #3044
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Ok.how do you explain xmen and bryan singer movies(first ones)?It's not like the leather suits where comfortable.
    That's a design choice that was popular at the time. It also isn't the only production with uncomfortable costumes.

  15. #3045
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    agreed! this is part of what I was talking about, about comics not taking a thoughtful holistic approach. these writer a lot of the time see the powers as an afterthought, "shiny wrapping", so they don't put the creative thought necessary into how it should play off design and personality.
    Re: what you said earlier. This isn't limited to superhero comics though. Manga is also guilty of this. Arguably to an even worse degree. MHA is one example when it comes to its female characters.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-06-2021 at 09:37 PM.

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