Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[jetengine]

“the writer obviously likes so and so better and is burying MY favourite character” etc, etc. and all of the nonsensical arguments that springs from a lot of this stuff online.

You say its nonsensical and then Dan Didio, head of DC admits he hates certain characters because "they age heroes" and then said heroes are constantly marginalised or killed.

[Robanker]

i feel you (damn-near spiritually) but i wouldn't say that's all that controversial. most people will agree to the existence of these kinds of toxic fans, it's recognizing if they themselves are the toxic fan is where it gets messy.

Criticism is part of discussion and when it's a constant issue (read: Didio's edicts to sabotage characters he personally dislikes), fans have a right to discuss their disapproval.

Some of us get too passionate and thus escalate that frustration beyond a reasonable threshold, but what you're arguing is essentially to keep your engagement at a level where you can't get fully invested, which I disagree with on every level.

It's about how discussion is conducted. I avoid a lot of appreciation threads or only bomb in occasionally because they end up being repositories for fan art, shipping wars or complaints (not all, mind, but many). I get where you're coming from, but these boards wouldn't even exist if people didn't love this stuff enough to enthuse or be frustrated over.

[9th.]

My latest controversial personal opinion… some comic book fans can be the whiniest, self entitled, child like, fanatics ever.

All a comic book company is supposed to do is simply offer a selection of titles they hope may entertain people. THAT’S IT.

Yet SOME comic book fans act as if these companies are supposed to cater to every single one of their personal whims.

Seriously, people if you don’t like something stop complaining and JUST DON’T BUY IT.

It gets kind of annoying constantly reading stuff like “So and so ruined everything” and “So and so is boring/stupid/whatever and therefore my favourite character is SUPERIOR” and “the writer obviously likes so and so better and is burying MY favourite character” etc, etc. and all of the nonsensical arguments that springs from a lot of this stuff online.

I mean, when I was 8 I no longer enjoyed wrestling, because I didn’t like one of the wrestler’s I liked turning heel.

Did I constantly complain about it, whining to whoever would listen for years on end? Of course not. I simply stopped watching and moved on to other stuff that entertained me. That simple.

That fact that grown adults can’t do the same with something as trivial as comic books is almost kind of disturbing to me personally.

Thats just nerd fanbases in general, Star Wars fans are ultra whiny too

[9th.]

You say its nonsensical and then Dan Didio, head of DC admits he hates certain characters because "they age heroes" and then said heroes are constantly marginalised or killed.

I still don't get this mindset, you can't have young adults that aged from from being pre teens and expect the old guard not to get old. It doesn't make any sense. You can't have Nightwing AND Damain around and not expect Bruce to atleast be in his mid 30's, you just can't.

[docmidnite]

This is a discussion board. Not a praise board. People are discussing, and that's entirely appropriate.

I'm not buying or reading the titles I don't like, but I am keeping up with what's happening on some of them, and am complaining when it sounds horrible (or about old changes I disliked ages ago). I keep following partially in case it sounds like it's getting good again. And partially because recreational outrage is its own kind of entertainment.

Where did I say anything about praise? I’m talking about the constant and incessant whining some fans go on and on and on about over and over again ad nauseam. It’s one thing to voice a complaint it’s another thing to keep on harping about your complaint endlessly until the end of time itself.

[superduperman]

Batwoman is more interesting than Batman.

[docmidnite]

Criticism is part of discussion and when it's a constant issue (read: Didio's edicts to sabotage characters he personally dislikes), fans have a right to discuss their disapproval.

Some of us get too passionate and thus escalate that frustration beyond a reasonable threshold, but what you're arguing is essentially to keep your engagement at a level where you can't get fully invested, which I disagree with on every level.

It's about how discussion is conducted. I avoid a lot of appreciation threads or only bomb in occasionally because they end up being repositories for fan art, shipping wars or complaints (not all, mind, but many). I get where you're coming from, but these boards wouldn't even exist if people didn't love this stuff enough to enthuse or be frustrated over.

Where did I say that? Where did I say anything about praise? I’m talking about the constant and incessant whining some fans go on and on and on about over and over again ad nauseam. It’s one thing to voice a complaint it’s another thing to keep on harping about your complaint endlessly until the end of time itself. Also, where’s your proof that Didio thinks and does that? Did he say that at a con or something? If not then that just seems like a disgruntled fan conspiracy to me. Especially with 5G supposedly aging everyone. Also there were MORE legacy characters added under Didio than in the 90’s. In fact there are already 5 generations thanks to Didio.

[Robanker]

Where did I say that? Where did I say anything about praise? I’m talking about the constant and incessant whining some fans go on and on and on about over and over again ad nauseam. It’s one thing to voice a complaint it’s another thing to keep on harping about your complaint endlessly until the end of time itself. Also, where’s your proof that Didio thinks and does that? Did he say that at a con or something? If not then that just seems like a disgruntled fan conspiracy to me. Especially with 5G supposedly aging everyone. Also there were MORE legacy characters added under Didio than in the 90’s. In fact there are already 5 generations thanks to Didio.

He's said outright he hates Dick and Wally because they age Bruce and Barry and it's come out across multiple sources who have left DC that he's always pushing to kill Dick. He's made no secret of that and if you haven't come across it, just Google his name with Wally West or Dick Grayson. It's not hard to find sources.

[jetengine]

He wanted Dick to die in Infinite Crisis but the writers pushed to have Con instead

[Dr. Ellingham]

He's said outright he hates Dick and Wally because they age Bruce and Barry and it's come out across multiple sources who have left DC that he's always pushing to kill Dick. He's made no secret of that and if you haven't come across it, just Google his name with Wally West or Dick Grayson. It's not hard to find sources.

"Hates"?


He wanted Dick to die because they wanted to make Jason Todd Nightwing, and he didn't see the point of two versions. And when his writing staff argued, he agreed and relented. Later Morrison came to him with a pitch to make Dick Batman, which he approved.

I've heard Didio say he loves Wally, but thinks Barry is a stronger character. And yet - walking that back 15 years, he used to tell DC creators that he'd never bring Barry back. He even said it at a convention.

That's not hate. It's a different viewpoint. One that's malleable.

The core issue longtime fans have with him is - he doesn't really care about 1980s-1990s DC. He's a 70s Marvel fan. So New Teen Titans? Death of Superman? Peter David's whole career? Meaningless to him from a nostalgia standpoint.

But even if he hated various characters - so what? He's not obligated to like the same old comics I do. I don't expect that.

[Ascended]

Didio doesn't have to have the same opinions I do. I honestly don't care what characters he likes or doesn't. As long as personal bias doesn't get in the way of good business, think whatever the hell you want, yknow?

But we've got several mentions in social media, conventions, interviews, etc., where Didio talks about his problems with certain characters like Dick and Wally. And when you then look at the state of those characters, especially since 2011 or so, it's easy to believe that Didio has allowed his opinions to influence business. And I don't care what you do, when you're own opinion gets in the way of profit that's a problem.

Now, if you can think of a proven business theory that justifies the treatment of stuff like the Nightwing title, I'd love to hear it. Because I've been trying for a while and can't. I'm not in publishing, and I'm not at DC, and I know each company and industry have their own quirks. But I am in business, and looking at the facts I have access to, I can't figure out where the logic is in some of Didio's choices.

I don't want to believe that Didio has let his own bias unduly influence the product but I can't think of any other reason that fits what we know. And while Didio has indeed given the green light to some positive stories with characters he's on record as disliking.....95% of those were quite a while ago. Like ten years ago.

I don't say that Didio is absolutely guilty of this, because I don't have enough data to make a call like that. I don't have the accounts or anything. But I'll be damned if any other explanation makes much sense either.

[docmidnite]

Didio doesn't have to have the same opinions I do. I honestly don't care what characters he likes or doesn't. As long as personal bias doesn't get in the way of good business, think whatever the hell you want, yknow?

But we've got several mentions in social media, conventions, interviews, etc., where Didio talks about his problems with certain characters like Dick and Wally. And when you then look at the state of those characters, especially since 2011 or so, it's easy to believe that Didio has allowed his opinions to influence business. And I don't care what you do, when you're own opinion gets in the way of profit that's a problem.

Now, if you can think of a proven business theory that justifies the treatment of stuff like the Nightwing title, I'd love to hear it. Because I've been trying for a while and can't. I'm not in publishing, and I'm not at DC, and I know each company and industry have their own quirks. But I am in business, and looking at the facts I have access to, I can't figure out where the logic is in some of Didio's choices.

I don't want to believe that Didio has let his own bias unduly influence the product but I can't think of any other reason that fits what we know. And while Didio has indeed given the green light to some positive stories with characters he's on record as disliking.....95% of those were quite a while ago. Like ten years ago.

I don't say that Didio is absolutely guilty of this, because I don't have enough data to make a call like that. I don't have the accounts or anything. But I'll be damned if any other explanation makes much sense either.

Show me where he said that about Dick and Wally please

[Robanker]

Show me where he said that about Dick and Wally please

Let me preface all this with saying that everyone is entitled a preference, but Dan exercises his against some of his most popular IPs. Dick and Wally have been voted as fan favorites for decades and Dan moved heaven and Earth to undermine them at every turn either due to spite (Dick) or wanting his personal favorite back (Barry).

Furthermore, I fully apologize if I come across as insufferable. I'm nursing a massive headache due to a cracked tooth, so please take my statements with a pinch of salt.

https://www.newsarama.com/42267-nycc...dc-nation.html

The reason that I hate Nightwing is that he's getting older... The reason people like Nightwing because he aged with them. But Batman can't get older.

Other bits from that link:

"DiDio is worried that one day there could be a story where Nightwing is older than Batman. Some fans call for DC to just kill Batman."
"DiDio says that the problem is that as characters get older, they start to get more and more similar and DC keeps having characters fill similar roles."

Keep in mind that he okayed five new human GLs in the last, what, four years? Three of which (Simon, Jess, Teen) are in-continuity, one isn't and one I'm unsure of (is Far Sector in continuity?), so this clearly has to be a non-issue or he's just a hypocrite.

"DiDio jokes that he hates Wally because he's tired of people asking why he hates Dick Grayson."

That's just for the admission of guilt (though the bit on Wally is a joke, we will touch back on Wally West), but let's look at a bit of history too.

He is confirmed to have pushed for not only Dick dying in Infinite Crisis, he originally wanted to have him turn evil and become Bruce's worst enemy; worse than The Joker.

https://www.cbr.com/dcs-plot-to-dest...an-we-thought/

He didn't get what he wanted, so Dick's city got nuked, he gets shot and barely survives and his mantle isn't usurped by a bloodthirsty Jason Todd. Hurray. In a few years, they make him Batman to near-universal acclaim under Morrison who wants that to remain for about 4-5 years. Dan even said he was glad they didn't kill Dick when he took over as Batman, but again, history will continue to disprove that claim.

Dan cut it short and alongside Jim Lee spearheaded the New 52 to wipe things clean just how they like it, hijacking Flashpoint to do so.

In the New 52, he's no longer Dick Grayson, but Richard Grayson. Because some kids giggle at his name being Dick, so they change it. They have a new event rolling around and guess who is back on the chopping block? That's right, Dick Grayson. He gets right up there again, but once again he skirts by and Agent 37 is announced. Everyone thought it would fail and it certainly sounded like a terrible idea. Given Didio's well-documented dislike of the character, fans assumed it was to sabotage Dick. It didn't take and now Grayson is a beloved classic. So that ends and we go back to Nightwing, which runs for a while and Ben Percy is brought on board to give it a boost. His plans are immediately pulled out from under him and solicitations are changed last minute, which Percy writes up to the shooting and then leaves the book and DC abruptly. Dick once again finds himself in Didio's crosshairs with KGBeast as his trigger man. Dick's brains get splattered on a sidewalk and, once again, he changes his name (but to Ric this time) and everything in his life is upended.

Didio hates Dick. Across Infinite Crisis (hell, even back during Devin Grayson's run) and through today, Dick is constantly getting his status quo upended and he's losing his memory, title, being turned inside and out or killed in some fashion. It never ends for the character.

But let's look at Wally West as well.

Didio has admitted that he wanted Barry back since the beginning. That's fine!

From the time I started working at DC, I had a plan --no, scratch that, a desire to bring back Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. To me, they were the definitive Green Lantern and Flash, and they helped bring forth a generation of heroes. More important, they were the base from which all the other ring-bearers and speedsters would come. Nothing against Kyle or Wally, but you can't know who they are without knowing who Hal and Barry are first...

Okay, Now, with Barry, things were a little more...complicated. his death was one of the most important events of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, not something to be changed on a whim or as easily undone. But slowly, over the years, the walls of Crisis came tumbling down, first with the return of the true Supergirl and then with the return of the Multiverse. Yet Barry's death held firm.

...

Confession time. I originally hoped to bring Barry back at the end of INFINITE CRISIS, but things didn't work out as planned. Still, we did plan on a change in Flashes, as to echo the original Crisis, so...enter Bart. Now, Bart was there to show the generational aspect of The Flash, but he was never going to be The Flash for long. Plans for his arrival and departure were worked out in conjunction with COUNTDOWN and the JLA/ JSA crossover. And again, it looked like we'd paved the way for Barry, but again the timing wasn't quite right. It wasn't until we hit FINAL CRISIS that the stars would align themselves properly.

He mentions they wanted to bring everything together with Barry as the focal point, but essentially admits "so I threw Bart into a dumpster fire as a sacrifice, which it turns out didn't even need to happen."

So Barry comes back, it turns out that Wally wasn't all that important with respect to the Speed Force (you know, that thing Waid created for Wally's run and made Wally it's greatest conduit). It was Barry! But not only was Barry the best, he also had to be its generator, which means all the other Flashes? They gotta kiss the ring. Including Jay Garrick, the first Flash who Barry wouldn't exist without. Suck eggs, old man! Wally's accomplishments? Barry could have done it. Jay? I guess he's important, but he was more like the opening act. Bart? Please, nobody likes Diet Allen.

It's fine if the current title bearer is going to to be The Bestest, but build to it over time. Don't try to play catch-up on twenty years of history over the course of six issues.

But even that I could live with. Wally was still a character and we'd be able to read his adventures, debate who was the best Flash, and just move on enjoying Barry and Wally getting to hang out again--

They then remove Wally from ever existing until Wallace West. Not all that relevant to this particular conversation because Wallace quickly became his own character, so we'll skip to Rebirth.

Wally becomes the FACE of Rebirth's attempt to bring lapsed fans back in and over a two year period, he dies four times, the most notable being when Tom King asked to tell a story he had plotted and is told "make it Wally, Booster and Harley."

https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co...ied_six_times/

So that character who was used to signal to lapsed fans that it's safe to come back? He is responsible for killing his friends and then covers it up in a gruesome way that everyone agreed is so wildly out of character it makes Elseworlds look canon. We reached critical Didio with this page:

Heroes-in-Crisis-9-7.jpg

The final book about not being afraid to ask for help and that even heroes need it ends with a broken Wally West crying in a jail cell, locked away with everything stripped from him.


I can understand people not liking Dick or Wally. That's absolutely fine. That doesn't change that they're popular characters who fans want to read about (particularly Nightwing) and yet there's no other explanation except for the very vocal executive who hates him all the way at the top of the pecking order.

All I wanted for Wally, as a fan, was for him to just be the Flash of the other city Barry's not occupying, even if he doesn't get his own book. I'd be fine knowing he's having adventures Over There^tm and maybe one day we'll get to them.

Or maybe he gets his kids back and goes into semi-retirement to focus on being a dad, having gotten a taste of life without his family and now wanting to live every moment with them. He agrees to help if Barry needs him or if the situation arises, but in his mind Barry is the Flash for now. Send him off intact and just tell Barry stories.

Can't have that, we need to undermine him because how dare anyone think Barry isn't the best Flash.

I'll wrap up with this link to a thread from last year. I and many others chime in, and if you read the thread (it's long, I wouldn't blame you if you don't) you'll see many of us give him credit where he's due. Dan deserves a lot of credit for some decisions, but creative ones I've rarely ceded him and his treatment of what's essentially the generation after what he grew up with is really awful. It extends beyond Dick and Wally (Kyle, Tim, etc) but I don't have all day.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...he-Didio-thing

[docmidnite]

Thank you. That’s all I wanted. That said, Didio is under no obligation to either like those characters or cater to the fans of those characters

In all of those interviews you just showed he implied that he felt that way because in his mind that was best for business. That’s his job. TO DO WHAT HE FEELS IS BEST FOR BUSINESS.

Not to cater to you or me.

Like I said before, all that a comic book company is supposed to do is simply offer a selection of titles they hope may entertain people. THAT’S IT.

We don’t have to like or agree with their choices and likewise they are under no obligation to agree with us and like what we like.

[jetengine]

Didio can hate characters, thats fine. But letting it interfere with work and burning sales/fanbase for it is unprofessional and dumb. Look at OMD and see how well that turned out.