Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[SiegePerilous02]

I like Dick Grayson, he's a great and important character. But his fanbase is way too sensitive and often, way too entitled. Under Didio the character was Batman for a while, and he had Spiral. And they still get their blood pressure up because he ALMOST died in Infinite Crisis. And that didn't even happen. So he has a bit of a lackluster amnesia arc going on.
Every character sometimes has bad stories or directions that don't meet their potential. Now fans of the rest of the Titans like Wally or Roy? Their frustrations seem more understandable to me.
Anyway ironically the best thing Grayson had going for him as character is that writers were willing to take risks, to make him give up Robin, become Batman, become a spy. Etc. So this one probably didn't work. Sounds like it's more the result of different creators having different plans behind the scenes than a malicious attempt to sabatoge the character.
Hell, I don't like Heroes in Crisis, but I'm not convinced it was done to sabatoge the character of Wally West. It was written by Tom King, the guy puts everyone through the wringer.
But I generally agree with DocMidnite. Or at least appreciate the point he's making. There's way more to running a comics company than just fanservice.

Fans who are upset about Dick's treatment are usually also upset by the treatment of Roy and (especially) Wally. There is a lot of overlap.

Yeah under DiDio's reign Dick got Batman and Spyral. Spyral was also cut short under the same reign and one of the authors was forced to write him back into Bludhaven as Nightwing despite being blatantly uninterested and it's been downhill ever since.

This isn't a little bit of an amnesia arc going on. This is a dumbass status quo that has been going on way too long because management doesn't give a **** and have been pretty upfront about that.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

There absolutely is more to it than fanservice. What I've been explaining (several times) is that this doesn't add up from the business end. It's not just a bad story or direction, creative missteps like that happen, it's no big deal, and every character at DC who has been around for more than six issues has had a bad story. This isn't a creative problem, it's a business concern.

Let me frame it another way. Let's say your accountant did something that goes against GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices) and it cost you your return. Now you're not getting your money this tax season. You have lost money. Now let's say you have reason to believe your accountant did this on purpose, because there's really no other reason you can find that explains why he would go against GAAP, and he's told you that he straight up hates your guts.

Does that sound okay to you? Is that just "business as usual?" Would you feel comfortable letting the same guy do your taxes next year? Or would you demand an explanation of why he went against GAAP and you lost your return? Maybe, when you find answers, you learn that your accountant did indeed do his best and didn't screw you over on purpose. Or maybe you learn that he did this intentionally. Either way, wouldn't you like to know?

In any case, this discussion has dominated the thread for the last couple pages and I haven't found anyone who can provide that business practice/theory X I'm looking for. So I'm gonna bow out of the discussion so we can all move on to complaining about other things.

A book you like just had an unpopular direction that tanked sales. You're trying to make it sound bigger than that, but it's really not. Hell if you looked at Nightwing sales, at first it took a while for the Ric thing to have an affect. Now it has, and surprise surprise, Tynion said it's going away. I'm not seeing the reckless buisiness practices from that. If sales went down faster, it would have gone away faster.

[docmidnite]

made a mistake

[docmidnite]

Imagine being a buisness (your sole objective is to make money) and then ignoring your popular items.

Their objective is TO MAKE MONEY this way is NOT MAKING MONEY and HURTING THEM. We've repeated this to you sevrral times but your under some bizarre assumption the Comic book buisness is just about dropping books of any quality down and letting them exist.

I never said that, so don’t go putting words in my mouth I never even said.

What I said was all that a comic book company is supposed to do is simply offer a selection of titles they hope may entertain people.

Not “put out books that they know suck and no one will ever buy”

Besides “quality” is a subjective term. A lot of 90’s fandom found Kyle’s GL run to be quality whereas, I and many others didn’t.

Doesn’t make either side “right” because again quality is a subjective term.

Also, DC has purposely destroyed many popular IP’s before like Supergirl, Batgirl, Superboy, All Star Squadron, Oliver Queen, the GLC, etc, BUT THE ONLY TIME PEOPLE GET BUTT HURT ABOUT IT IS WHEN IT HAPPENS TO THEIR FAVOURITE CHARACTERS.


Anyway, I’m done so argue amongst yourselves.

[Robanker]

I have zero interest in a Robin book but Damian is way too popular not to have one and it annoys me that there's no Robin book.

[Anthony Shaw]

The speed force is a fickle mistress, I guess?

I think your answer is the only one that makes sense outside PIS.

BTW, I appreciate your contributions to this thread.

[jetengine]

I never said that, so don’t go putting words in my mouth I never even said.

What I said was all that a comic book company is supposed to do is simply offer a selection of titles they hope may entertain people.

Not “put out books that they know suck and no one will ever buy”

Besides “quality” is a subjective term. A lot of 90’s fandom found Kyle’s GL run to be quality whereas, I and many others didn’t.

Doesn’t make either side “right” because again quality is a subjective term.

Also, DC has purposely destroyed many popular IP’s before like Supergirl, Batgirl, Superboy, All Star Squadron, Oliver Queen, the GLC, etc, BUT THE ONLY TIME PEOPLE GET BUTT HURT ABOUT IT IS WHEN IT HAPPENS TO THEIR FAVOURITE CHARACTERS.


Anyway, I’m done so argue amongst yourselves.

"Hope may entertain people" is for start up buisnesses. DC knows their OPs and knows what sells. Dick is their 4th most well known IP, tanking your product after admitting you dislike it for spurious reasons isnt good no matter how you slice it.

[lemonpeace]

I like Dick Grayson, he's a great and important character. But his fanbase is way too sensitive and often, way too entitled. Under Didio the character was Batman for a while, and he had Spiral. And they still get their blood pressure up because he ALMOST died in Infinite Crisis. And that didn't even happen. So he has a bit of a lackluster amnesia arc going on.
Every character sometimes has bad stories or directions that don't meet their potential. Now fans of the rest of the Titans like Wally or Roy? Their frustrations seem more understandable to me.
Anyway ironically the best thing Grayson had going for him as character is that writers were willing to take risks, to make him give up Robin, become Batman, become a spy. Etc. So this one probably didn't work. Sounds like it's more the result of different creators having different plans behind the scenes than a malicious attempt to sabatoge the character.
Hell, I don't like Heroes in Crisis, but I'm not convinced it was done to sabatoge the character of Wally West. It was written by Tom King, the guy puts everyone through the wringer.
But I generally agree with DocMidnite. Or at least appreciate the point he's making. There's way more to running a comics company than just fanservice.

A book you like just had an unpopular direction that tanked sales. You're trying to make it sound bigger than that, but it's really not. Hell if you looked at Nightwing sales, at first it took a while for the Ric thing to have an affect. Now it has, and surprise surprise, Tynion said it's going away. I'm not seeing the reckless buisiness practices from that. If sales went down faster, it would have gone away faster.

this guy here, I like 'em

[Sergard]

Probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyway (because sometimes superhero comics are a closed book for me): How's "most well known IP" defined?
Is this somehow connected to these mysterious "pillars" some people are talking about?
And why are Dick and Harley "pillars" and characters like Joker, Hal Jordan, Flash, Aquaman, Batgirl etc. are not?
What's the advantage of being a "pillar" for a character? Is it important to be a "pillar"?

[Restingvoice]

Probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyway (because sometimes superhero comics are a closed book for me): How's "most well known IP" defined?
Is this somehow connected to these mysterious "pillars" some people are talking about?
And why are Dick and Harley "pillars" and characters like Joker, Hal Jordan, Flash, Aquaman, Batgirl etc. are not?
What's the advantage of being a "pillar" for a character? Is it important to be a "pillar"?

Most well known for me is if it's a household name. Everyone even people who don't read comics know them. Superman, Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Joker, The Flash, Supergirl, and so on

No idea about official definition but what I've seen is they are considered Pillar if they build or maintain the DCU for example
Superman is Pillar because he's the first superhero
Wonder Woman is one because she's the first female superhero
Dick because he's the first kid sidekick
Batman because he's number one DC's cash cow
Harley is new, she's only started to be considered a Pillar in Rebirth. She moves merch. She financially supports current DC.

It depends on what type of Pillar they are, I guess. Harley and Batman supporting DC financially meaning they're prioritized in publications.

[9th.]

I have zero interest in a Robin book but Damian is way too popular not to have one and it annoys me that there's no Robin book.

That Son of Batman series he had was pretty good, I have no idea why doesn't have a solo.

[Restingvoice]

That Son of Batman series he had was pretty good, I have no idea why doesn't have a solo.

Yeah, that's a good question...
When Rebirth first started he's set up to lead Teen Titans and Super Sons, so that's already enough.
Son of Batman's concept is him trying to atone for his past, but the real reason was to get him out of Gotham because Snyder wanted to do a new Batman and Robin concept. Gordon, Duke, and the We Are Robins.
Now that Super Sons is out, I'm guessing they don't have a good concept or writers
Gleason is off to Marvel
Tomasi is assigned to Detective Comics where he uses Damian quite often
Morrison is done with Damian
Dustin Nguyen is making Li'l Gotham
Those are all Damian's regular writers and it's usually the writers who pitch the concept so they have no enthusiasts left?
and a new team is in Super Sons graphic novel
So I guess DC thinks they have all Damian's bases covered
It could also be that they hold him off in preparation for 5G, so they want to make sure the story in Teen Titans will lead up to that. Him retiring from Robin, until Superman needs him to find Batman's daughter?

[superduperman]

Alan Scott should be the only Green Lantern.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I love Barbara as Batgirl and don't agree that she had to pass up the mantle even when she was paralysed. In fact, I feel that it would have been an amazing excuse to idealise mobility equipment in the fantastical sense for the disabled in the same way that all super-heroics idealise the incredible feats that able-bodied people are (potentially) able to pull off. Her being paralysed shouldn't limit her to just co-ordinating others, she should have the opportunity to get out there and enjoy having made as big a name for herself as any of the costumed heroes out there.

I also feel that, while Cassandra Cain is a great character, I don't necessarily agree that she 'deserves' to be Batgirl just by virtue of being the better fighter. I think there's more to the Batgirl name than that, i.e Babs' craftiness and wiley nature, even so far back as the Bronze Age, is grossly understated and that works from the 2011 reboot and beyond have done a great job at putting that back into the forefront.

Additionally: I firmly believe that Babs was never a side-kick. Batgirl was a name inspired by Batman, but not designed to work 'beneath' him--Babs has her own way of doing things and that, to her, puts the people of Gotham at the front and centre.

[Shockingjustice]

As much as I love Mari and animal powers are vastly underrated considering what some of them can do, DC was kind of one minded in inventing her. A African character with no good family members, one family member that killed her father, adopted by a white one (which is not a problem, but you know) and given animal powers where if she doesn't have her necklace she starts acting like an animal while named Vixen. Just feels like a lot of oversight.