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  1. #1141
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    Of the Big 3, the only character to have benefited from all the post-Crisis revamps was Batman.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  2. #1142
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    TV Supergirl is too likable to be Lois Lane. The only time I ever thought Lois was likable was in the Superman the Animated Series.
    The only version of Lois I can think of who was all that unlikeable was early Post-Crisis Lois where she was constantly aggressive, mean-spirited, or bitter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I like Cyborg being on the JL and dread the day nostalgia fans get their way and force him back into the dumpster fire that is the Titans franchise these days.

    Also the Titans are pretty useless because no one knows what to do with them. “We’re a family” is not a strong enough mission statement. Nightwing and Wally West are the only two Titans I care about.
    I mean, even you have to quantify that with how mismanaged the franchise has been, so I don't think it's the connection that's the issue but how far the franchise has fallen.

  3. #1143
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think we're on the same page as far as stripping him of his Earth based elements and cast is wrong altogether. And yeah Brainiac and Zod and co all interact with him on Earth as well.

    But him battling Brainiac in space I don't think needs a deeper explanation than him primarily being known as a Superman villain, so who else would he usually be fighting? He was introduced because Superman has a cosmic side. Meanwhile, he battles Lex Luthor on Earth, but so could Batman or Wonder Woman.
    Thinking about this, I think I’d argue that a wholly space set Brainiac story is basically just a generic sci-fi story. There aren’t many elements of that that would change beyond a connection to Superman as the last Kryptonian. Beyond that it generally loses the elements of a “Superman” story. Mainly I think you need a connection to humanity to really tell “Superman” stories.

    You can definitely tell Batman/Luthor or Wonder Woman/Luthor stories and retain the central elements of Batman and Wonder Woman. It’d play on different elements than it would with Superman, but it could work.

    I think my point generally is that you can tell good cosmic stories with Superman, with few exceptions they are limited to just good stories. Ultimately you could sub in any number of other characters and not change the storyline much. But to tell good “Superman” stories you need the human elements.

  4. #1144
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Of the Big 3, the only character to have benefited from all the post-Crisis revamps was Batman.
    Unpopular opinion: Neither did he
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  5. #1145
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Thinking about this, I think I’d argue that a wholly space set Brainiac story is basically just a generic sci-fi story. There aren’t many elements of that that would change beyond a connection to Superman as the last Kryptonian. Beyond that it generally loses the elements of a “Superman” story. Mainly I think you need a connection to humanity to really tell “Superman” stories.

    You can definitely tell Batman/Luthor or Wonder Woman/Luthor stories and retain the central elements of Batman and Wonder Woman. It’d play on different elements than it would with Superman, but it could work.

    I think my point generally is that you can tell good cosmic stories with Superman, with few exceptions they are limited to just good stories. Ultimately you could sub in any number of other characters and not change the storyline much. But to tell good “Superman” stories you need the human elements.
    You do need the connection to humanity, but you really need that to tell all superhero stories.

    I think my problem with too much humanity is the general trend to to focus on the Superman and not so much the Superman, making the character just seem like any other generic meta rather than the larger than life cosmic level Sci-Fi Hercules he can be, who does and sees all the craziest, weird shit. The character is at his best when it is a well balanced Superman. The humanity is vital because at his core he's the Champion of the Oppressed and those stories cannot be told without humanity, but he's also the guy who sees and does the larger than life impossible. And really when hes off in space or whatever, the best writers can still tell a very human story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Unpopular opinion: Neither did he
    Yeah, Bruce just gradually became a grouchy bitch. I have to read the pre-Crisis comics or watch the DCAU to remember why i love the guy half the time.
    I think I prefer pre-Crisis across the board for the Trinity. Wonder Woman got some good stuff in post-Crisis but it was a mixed bag, and it is mostly great in comparison to what came immediately before hand. Even so, I prefer the general mythos of her pre-Crisis lore. Superman was just straight up terrible aside from, like, Maggie Sawyer and that's it. Other stuff like the marriage could have still developed eventually without a revamp.

  6. #1146
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, Bruce just gradually became a grouchy bitch. I have to read the pre-Crisis comics or watch the DCAU to remember why i love the guy half the time.
    I think I prefer pre-Crisis across the board for the Trinity. Wonder Woman got some good stuff in post-Crisis but it was a mixed bag, and it is mostly great in comparison to what came immediately before hand. Even so, I prefer the general mythos of her pre-Crisis lore. Superman was just straight up terrible aside from, like, Maggie Sawyer and that's it. Other stuff like the marriage could have still developed eventually without a revamp.
    DCAU Batman developed pretty similarly to Post-Crisis Batman in terms of becoming more bitter, laser-focused, and serious, especially by the point he starts mentoring Terry, you just had B:TAS that showcased him in his prime before that happened.

    For me I think Post-Crisis added enough to the Superman mythos to warrant it's existence. The marriage may yet have happened but the way it came about played into the Post-Crisis continuity and development of Lois and Clark's relationship so I'm not sure if one can really say that.

    It's generally become the main inspiration point for a lot of Superman adaptions.

  7. #1147
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Cyborg on the Justice League has always been laughable. He really doesn't have much to offer that team. He has no mythology and he overall just sucks. Most of the time. He was okay-ish in some Marv Wolfman comics and I liked some instances of him on Teen Titans Go!, but I mostly see that character as a spectacularly mishandled failure on an even comical level. I actually do not understand the appeal of him, aside from him being DC's token black, and that's not appealing in and of itself to me, but it appears to be for some people.

    I was first exposed to him on the first Teen Titans cartoon, and as a brown kid growing up, he NEVER appealed to me. Why? He was a visually unappealing over-sized robotic brute-looking character saying stuff like "BOOYAH!" And...I dunno'. I didn't relate with that. I thought it was stereotypical and cringey. That said, I'm sure somebody was into that, but I'm just offering my own personal perspective.

    As for Martian Manhunter, he kind of sucks, too, in that he's completely uninteresting on his own, and I wouldn't say that about any other founding Justice League member. That said, I do think the team benefits from having a sage-like member who every other member respects and can talk to.

  8. #1148
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I like Cyborg and Martian Manhunter just fine.....but NEITHER of them deserve to be founding members of the Justice League. What do Batman, Aquaman, Superman, The Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman have, that J’onn and Victor don’t?
    The other six have their own mythos unique to them, solos that last more than 30 issues before cancellation, their own villains and supporting characters. J’onn is just too derivative of Superman. And Cyborg just isn’t a solo character. He doesn’t have his own mythos outside of the new gods or the Titans.
    Again, I like them just fine. But if it were up to me, the only founding members would be Clark, Bruce, Diana, Hal, Barry and Arthur. But if I absolutely had to pick a 7th member, it would be another woman like Hawkgirl or Vixen.
    Agree completely. I think some writers trying to make MM and Cyborg more important than they really have been in the DCU in all media, imo.
    No. In 1961, Martian Manhunter was one of DC's more prominent superhero characters, consistently appearing in a feature within a title (like Aquaman). In 1961, that was the minimum standard for admission to The Elite Club, as it had been for The JSA in 1940 (although, I admit that Green Arrow should have been there too by those standards; too much like Batman?). Cyborg didn't have that going for him at the time they tried making a JL Centerpiece of him.

  9. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I like Pa to die soon in Clark's career as Superman. Ma can be alive much longer until she meets her grandchild. The Kents are important when Clark is young and learning to be careful with his powers. They raise him and teach him great values. After that, I don't mind Ma being alive because it provides nice and heartfelt family memories and moments. Even Superman needs a family to talk to and have quality time.
    This is why Pre-Crisis Superboy was valuable. To give Kal-el a family. It's also why Action Comics should be separated from all other Superman titles' continuity. It.would give us a place where those parts of Superman, that have no utility to his ongoing adventures, can be explored.

  10. #1150
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    No. In 1961, Martian Manhunter was one of DC's more prominent superhero characters, consistently appearing in a feature within a title (like Aquaman). In 1961, that was the minimum standard for admission to The Elite Club, as it had been for The JSA in 1940 (although, I admit that Green Arrow should have been there too by those standards; too much like Batman?). Cyborg didn't have that going for him at the time they tried making a JL Centerpiece of him.
    Yeah except it is now 2019, not 1961. Being a has-been can only get you so far.

  11. #1151
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    The post crisis revamps weren't a problem until writers became obsessed with bringing pre crisis stuff.

  12. #1152
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The only version of Lois I can think of who was all that unlikeable was early Post-Crisis Lois where she was constantly aggressive, mean-spirited, or bitter.

    I mean, even you have to quantify that with how mismanaged the franchise has been, so I don't think it's the connection that's the issue but how far the franchise has fallen.
    Even if the franchise were to rebuild itself I’m still not sure I want Cyborg back with them. I like him on the League. As someone powered by Apokoliptan tech I think he totally fits there. Writers have not done a good job of building his relationships with the League but I don’t think that’s impossible. If he ever did go back to the Titans he would have to be the leader for me to be ok with it.

  13. #1153
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    DCAU Batman developed pretty similarly to Post-Crisis Batman in terms of becoming more bitter, laser-focused, and serious, especially by the point he starts mentoring Terry, you just had B:TAS that showcased him in his prime before that happened.
    This is definitely why I prefer the earlier seasons, but even so Bruce's descent into becoming colder was still more likable than what happened in the comics.
    Helps that the incident with Tim and the Joker lead to a more logical conclusion than the comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    For me I think Post-Crisis added enough to the Superman mythos to warrant it's existence. The marriage may yet have happened but the way it came about played into the Post-Crisis continuity and development of Lois and Clark's relationship so I'm not sure if one can really say that.
    I really don't think it added too much, but there were a lot of subtractions. New additions that came about like Maggie, Steel and Kon could have existed without a revamp.
    That specific take on the marriage was based around the post-Crisis era, but Clark and Lois had been dancing around each other sine 1938 and the possibility of marriage was always present in their future. it may have developed differently, but a marriage was always possible without a reboot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It's generally become the main inspiration point for a lot of Superman adaptions.
    And that's pretty unfortunate, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The post crisis revamps weren't a problem until writers became obsessed with bringing pre crisis stuff.
    I think they had a limited shelf life from the beginning. You don't establish the trend of chucking everything that came before to start over without the possibility of the new take wearing out its welcome down the road too, necessitating the return of older stuff that seems fresher since its absence or new stuff entirely.

    Creative direction overhauls were needed for all three of them, but the pre-Crisis stuff could have existed just fine without interfering with the changes that worked. Byrne's Superman in particular are some really bad comics, the other two revamps at least have some redeeming features, but his was needless. All the changes, save the Kents being alive, could have been implemented without a reboot and his mythos would be more coherent because of it. Look at what became of the Supergirl and Legion continuities, the problems began with altering continuity without committing fully to a reboot. Either do or don't, DC never learns that lesson.

  14. #1154
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    Wonder Woman is still recovering and trying to find her footing since Crisis.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  15. #1155
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    I pretty much agree that all the reboots and retcons coming from Crisis were unnecessary. DC didn't need to throw out their whole universe just to effect some changes. They had always done that before--conveniently forgetting characters and storylines that no longer worked.

    However, I'm not sure that Wonder Woman was better off before the Crisis. There were many times where she was rebooted and retconned prior to Crisis and all of these efforts came to nought. They have been trying to fix Wonder Woman since the 1950s. DC should have learned from the past and realized that rebooting Wonder Woman yet again isn't going to work out. All they succeed in doing is tying themselves up in knots over the mess they've made. Maybe the solution is not trying to fix her.
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