Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Killerbee911]

Why do I say that? The JL tends to be based on DC's most prominent (both in universe and IRL), and commercially successful superheroes. They generally drift back to a central cast comprised of the characters that can sell comics individually (even if sporadically), because that's the JL's schtick, The World's Greatest Superheroes. Some will say, "it's just the old farts wanting their Superfriends," and there are some for who that's true. But at the end of the day, a title like JL needs characters that most can believe are at the top of the heap, or it's just another team book. Cyborg, simply put, isn't there.

Outside The JL's Big 10, Black Lightning, Black Canary, Wally (Flash) West, Supergirl, Power Girl, Nightwing, Batgirl, and even Booster Gold all have a better claim on that title to prominence than Cyborg or, for that matter Red Tornado.

Uhhmm How many times Aquaman or Green Arrow has been canceled? When has Martian Manhunter hold been able keep a book? Lets not go popularity and commercial success because publishers have a history of torpedoing books with questionable choices and while keep characters in spotlight even though they are struggling because of their back catalog. Cyborg is inline with other choices that is on the team. Consistently give Cyborg the creative teams that Batman and Superman get lets see if he won't have commercial success. And while we are on Batman and Superman how about they tone ridiculous love of them other characters can look like amazing heroes. Good luck Cyborg being written as smart tech guy with Batman around. Cyborg can easily be written as one of the smartest characters in DC and the go to for all thing science/tech related but BatGod needs his moments. Another easy example is a character like Damage who is designed to be a strength monster, Good Luck convincing fan base or even writers to write a character stronger than Superman. Let not pretend there is a system that keeps characters from shining and being a top hero.

Also, the Avengers may have more varied lineups, but how long do the B and C listers stick around? And it always seems to circle back to including the likes of Cap, Thor, Iron-Man, Hulk, Black Panther, etc. Sometimes even Wolverine and Spider-Man, who really don't need to be there.

It is funny that you mention Wolverine and Spiderman, Avengers switches between Classic roster and A-listers. Marvel had a period where they went you know what the Avengers should be "The Justice League" aka the biggest heroes the A-listers and guess what Wolverine,Hulk,Dr Strange and Spiderman are in that group but in weird reversal of DC fans,Marvel fans seem want a more classic line up which isn't necessarily all the big guns. Which brings me to point that reverse is happening here some fans are asking that Justice League not be always made of the "Big Guns" and DC case "The Big guns" is this team isn't very dynamic and versatile powerset wise and it lacks diversity. DC more than Marvel has reason to move away from the classic team. The most annoying thing is new characters or even some of the older ones aren't allowed to be "A Big gun". DC is having a big event where heroes get a chance to shine as "Big Gun" If Cyborg isn't on the main team in the main story with significant role,How does he become a Big gun? .

I thought that DC putting Cyborg in Justice League mean he would be treated like a equal member getting story arc on him and moments to shine, They would put star creative teams on his solo book(they did at beginning), They would give him animated movies. That is not how it played out. He was transport and exposition machine and when his solo book need to be refocus like all characters they didn't use star creative teams again. I am tired of people saying characters aren't star quality but they keep throwing C level creative talent and expect A level results while they keep throwing A-list caliber pencilers and writers at main Superman and Batman books. To often the effort does not match the intent and they would give Wonder woman and Superman tons of chances to refocus and find a path that works but I watch Static or Blue Beetle just canceled never to been seen for years.

[DrNewGod]

I thought that DC putting Cyborg in Justice League mean he would be treated like a equal member getting story arc on him and moments to shine, They would put star creative teams on his solo book(they did at beginning), They would give him animated movies. That is not how it played out. He was transport and exposition machine and when his solo book need to be refocus like all characters they didn't use star creative teams again. I am tired of people saying characters aren't star quality but they keep throwing C level creative talent and expect A level results while they keep throwing A-list caliber pencilers and writers at main Superman and Batman books. To often the effort does not match the intent and they would give Wonder woman and Superman tons of chances to refocus and find a path that works but I watch Static or Blue Beetle just canceled never to been seen for years.

This I can agree with. Cyborg does need better treatment and some top talent to build him up. I'd like to see him become A-List.

[DrNewGod]

I have my views and you have yours. Agree to disagree and move on already. We disagree on something and that's just fine. Thank you very much.

...and I was too harsh. I guess what I'd compare it to is Wolverine's ascension at Marvel. His rep was built on what amounted (at that time) to a second tier team, and he became it's star. I'd love to see Cyborg do that with a group like The Titans, or The Outsiders, and hold a successful solo title. All that takes good writer and artist teams treating him well. I'd love to.see him ascend to the JL in an organic manner.

[Aahz]

The Justice League has included the likes of Red Tornado (whose frequent habit of being destroyed is practically a running gag), Hawkman, who's even more useless to the team than Superfriends Aquaman and Green Arrow who I could write an entire essay on what a screw up he is as a human being and a hero and still never scratch the surface.

The Difference when it comes Hawkman and Green Arrow (and Atom) is, that they were a bigger deal (and less screwed up) back in the 60s when they, joined the League. And they they all joined the League very early and have therefore a quite long history with the League and are almost Founders, which makes them fit all a little better in an than newer characters.

I also think that the League can work if you have (some of) the Big 6 and a few other characters. The problem with the current League is just that Cyborg is the only "other Character" (or at least was pre No Justice, I have not read the new run sofar).


Really problematic it only gets imo only with lineups like Justice League Detroid or (that might be controversial) Justice League International, where you have hardly any of the iconic members and a lot of members that are not particularly capable or heroic.

[Killerbee911]

This I can agree with. Cyborg does need better treatment and some top talent to build him up. I'd like to see him become A-List.

The thing is Cyborg already is A-list. He has been in a great Teen Titans cartoon, Teen Titans go, He is a member of the Justice League in comics,He is member of the Justice League in the movies, He is member of Justice League in animated movies. He has had many solo comic series . There is no list of visibility measurable(well maybe big solo projects) that he doesn't pass except that DC doesn't prioritize him for big roles him like they do say Trinity in stories.

You don't see him as A-list big gun because the stories don't use him as A-list big gun, If DC tomorrow went Trinity is now the Quartet Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Cyborg. And the next big event is Cyborg War then what would happen? Note I am not saying Cyborg is as popular as those characters I am saying certain component of their popularity is company pushed. Justice League the movie sucked, so Cyborg movie got silently moved from the slate it seems. Green Lantern bombed it the next movie vanished from existence. Batman V Superman was objectively not a good movie and they went hey let us push out a another movie with the same exact tone and director. Justice League bombed and they will still put out a Batman or Superman movie with no issue.For some properties they will keep trying no matter what.The big point is the don't discount the major companies ability to put a character into the spotlight but when clearest role is blocked by the company biggest icon, It is hard to be seen on the same tier. Cyborg could have be DC's Ironman when they put him on the Justice League but we know which character is the "Brain" and gets the intelligence feats. Instead of saying this character isn't top tier character ask why they would do everything they can to reinvent Aquaman but just quit on some characters. Yes Cyborg got "the God push" by DC but guess what stop him from achieving the next level those same big heroes. Imagine a world where Micheal Jordan and other athletes never lose their prime, Do you think Lebron and Kobe gets notice in the same way if Jordan, Magic and Bird was around?

[Aahz]

The thing is Cyborg already is A-list. He has been in a great Teen Titans cartoon, Teen Titans go, He is a member of the Justice League in comics,He is member of the Justice League in the movies, He is member of Justice League in animated movies. He has had many solo comic series . There is no list of visibility measurable(well maybe big solo projects) that he doesn't pass except that DC doesn't prioritize him for big roles him like they do say Trinity in stories.

They use him a lot, but he has no iconic solo stories, villains, supporting cast or setting. And his solo series sells really poorly.

[Agent Z]

They use him a lot, but he has no iconic solo stories, villains, supporting cast or setting. And his solo series sells really poorly.

Replace Cyborg with Martian Manhunter or Hawkman, and this applies x11.

[hero talk]

I think all the justice league is interchangeable except for batman superman and wonder woman and thats not even true of them all the time
there's even a song about it called thats what superfriends are for by Mad where all the other heroes say there interchangeable except for the big three
and thats why they shouldn't call them superfriends then batmans says ok lets call it the justice league

[hero talk]

also I can see why they picked cyborg over Martian Manhunter or Hawkman because no one outside comic book readers really know who hawkman is and cyborg is one of the most well known black superheros
he's sort of like dc's black panther black lighting would not have worked that well because no one outside comic readers know who he is and John Stewart wouldn't have worked because he is one of many green lanterns
cyborg is the only cyborg

[byrd156]

They use him a lot, but he has no iconic solo stories, villains, supporting cast or setting. And his solo series sells really poorly.

Cyborg definitely has the exposure but he has yet to build any real hook outside of being a Titan.

[Jim Kelly]

Black Lightning is becoming more well-known thanks to the TV show. In hindsight, it would have been better to have BL join the original JLA, now that his timeline is changed. Jefferson must have been active back in the day to have kids that are grown or almost grown. Whereas, Vic Stone is still supposed to be young--him being in the first Justice League screws around with the timeline--either he has to be much older now or the JLA has only been active for a few years.

The DC timeline is a mess.

[byrd156]

Black Lightning is becoming more well-known thanks to the TV show. In hindsight, it would have been better to have BL join the original JLA, now that his timeline is changed. Jefferson must have been active back in the day to have kids that are grown or almost grown. Whereas, Vic Stone is still supposed to be young--him being in the first Justice League screws around with the timeline--either he has to be much older now or the JLA has only been active for a few years.

The DC timeline is a mess.

That should be DC's new tagline.

[caj]

That should be DC's new tagline.

Agree. "DC Comics - we have no official history and the timeline we use is an absolute mess. Buy our comics and be as completely confused as we are"

[byrd156]

Agree. "DC Comics - we have no official history and the timeline we use is an absolute mess. Buy our comics and be as completely confused as we are"

I really wish our threads had like buttons.

[caj]

I really wish our threads had like buttons.

LOL - thanks, I appreciate that.