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  1. #1876
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    If Super-Heroes tried harder to be kids' media more of the time, I think more fans would be okay with them being kids' media - but they're sure dedicated to being "grown up", pretty much constantly since the late '80s - or at least it's an option they've dedicated a lot of time and energy to keeping on the table.

    I mean look, my two favorite non-comic portrayals of Superman in the last ten years have been Batman v Superman, a movie that deals with relatively complex issues of morality and apathy, of unintended consequences for one's actions and of being blinded to the "you" in "the other" - and Justice League Action, a goofy cartoon where Booster Gold tried to build Jurassic Park with a time machine because he didn't watch very far into the movie and thought that it was a good idea based on the first half hour.

    The people who make super-hero media are pretty invested in the idea that they're at least capable of being "grown-up," and I don't think that's going to change.

    So maybe they should not put any stock in national stereotypes and other problematic tropes.
    Wait, when did that happen? Which episode is it? That seems fun.

  2. #1877
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Wait, when did that happen? Which episode is it? That seems fun.
    It's called "Booster's Gold", and it's pretty damn fun, for sure!
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  3. #1878
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    It's called "Booster's Gold", and it's pretty damn fun, for sure!
    Thanks. For letting me know, i surprisingly missed it.

  4. #1879
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A lot of DC's Asian women characters fall very heavily into the "Dragon lady" stereotype. Then there are characters like Egg Fu which fans keep pushing for writers to use more and more despite everything about him screaming "typical Silver Age comics racism". Actually a lot of Wonder Woman's Golden and Silver Age writing when it comes to women and non-white people is viewed with rose-tinted glasses. Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One got praise from Golden Age WW fans for harkening back to that era despite those tropes being abandoned for good reasons.

    You also have the outdated depiction of the mentally ill in superhero comics (especially Batman) which more often than not falls into violent murderers despite mentally ill people being more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.

    Then we have people complaining about "over-representation" of racial minorities and non-white people in superhero comics despite the fact that DC has only relatively recently started treating those groups like people instead of unicorns. Despite the fact that the world isn't just white and/or straight people, the mere presence of someone outside that demographic is enough to cause controversy to the point some bend over backwards to claim that the Martian Manhunter is better representation of African-Americans than Cyborg. When a white character fails to take off, we don't have people ready to throw a parade the same way people do if someone like Vixen or Cyborg's book struggles.

    And who can forget the toxic backlash to Janelle Asselin over her criticism of a Teen Titans cover which resulted in this board being purged and rebooted. Some of that toxicity still remains as we saw how many people jumped through hoops to defends Frank Cho in the Wonder Woman variant cover debacle despite him unambiguously and unquestionably in the wrong.
    Just wanted to say: woah. Also: I agree.

  5. #1880
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    Quote Originally Posted by yash View Post
    I'm pretty sure you and I had a discussion about your claims about mentally ill, you are wrong about that claim and you still insist on repeating that claim, your other points were addressed so I won't bother with those
    From what I recall, you flat out admitted you didn't put much research into what you were saying and posted stuff that outright contradicted what you were saying.

  6. #1881
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Here's a controversial opinion that seems pretty timely, since Zack Snyder's Justice League has just been announced for HBO Max and so many DCEU fans, including myself, are falling over themselves with glee and delight...

    I like the theatrical cut of Justice League. I mean not only that, I legitimately love it. The way that Batman isn't treated as an unstoppable engine of destruction but as fallible and vaguely out of his depth, despite his force-of-nature personality, pissed a lot of people off, but I loved it. Flash's social awkwardness bothered people, but I found it endearing. Some fans hated Superman's more upbeat portrayal, but let's face it, Jerry Siegel himself could have written some of those 'infamous' one-liners! And not only that, I don't think Bruce and Kal are inconsistent with their portrayal in BvS either. Bruce got hit hard by the sudden realization that his usual assurance almost led him to commit an atrocity. Not only that, but Clark gets to see firsthand that Bruce redeemed himself and that for the first time in his career, Superman has backup. It makes perfect sense to me that he'd be more cheerful and more confident in that situation! Not to mention that we've seen both Bruce's penchant for awkwardness in a situation ("I thought she was with you,") and Kal's penchant for cheesy, even bad, one-liners ("I'm pretty sure that only counts if you're kissing a human,") in prior movies. Kal just never had an audience for them during a low-stakes fight before.

    Do I think JL is perfect? No I don't. Diana and Vic have incredibly truncated arcs, and Steppenwolf is practically a nonentity. A movie juggling eight major characters including the six heroes, Lois Lane and Steppenwolf, needed to be longer than two hours. Still, it was a hell of a ride, and I had a lot of fun watching it. To this day, it's the DC movie I'm most likely to put on in the background.

    None of which is to say I'm any less excited for the Snyder Cut because of my love for the theatrical version, but honestly, I get just... annoyed, and let down, whenever I see a celebrating fan dunk on Joss Whedon. He doesn't deserve the crap. We can do better than that.
    Last edited by Adekis; 05-21-2020 at 03:45 AM.
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  7. #1882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    None of which is to say I'm any less excited for the Snyder Cut because of my love for the theatrical version, but honestly, I get just... annoyed, and let down, whenever I see a celebrating fan dunk on Joss Whedon. He doesn't deserve the crap. We can do better than that.
    What you described is how Snyder fans have been feeling for years. Honestly, what we're seeing now is sadly not new when it comes to comic fandom. Remember the homophobic slurs that were so common in the backlash to Batman and Robin?

    That being said, I'm glad you liked something about the JL theatrical version.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 05-21-2020 at 04:09 AM.

  8. #1883
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What you described is how Snyder fans have been feeling for years.
    I am a Snyder fan, and I'm not totally sure what you're talking about. Do you mean the online harassment that Snyder got over the years?
    I've sure been mad when jerks out there try to dunk on Snyder, I just don't want to see us become what we hate. Joss Whedon was hired to turn someone else's movie into "The Avengers," and he gave it his best shot, which frankly was a shitty situation. It doesn't mean he deserves online hate, anymore than Zack did all this time from some of his more vocal detractors. The fact that I like what he came up with for JL is secondary to this particular part of the issue.

    A sort of aggressive, unrealistic optimism is what I liked about the #SnyderCut movement in the first place. We shouldn't be putting people down, especially now that we're finally on top for once. It's a very bad look - for anyone.
    WHEN YOU DON'T VOTE, IT ISN'T REBELLION, IT'S SURRENDER!

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  9. #1884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I am a Snyder fan, and I'm not totally sure what you're talking about. Do you mean the online harassment that Snyder got over the years?
    I've sure been mad when jerks out there try to dunk on Snyder, I just don't want to see us become what we hate. Joss Whedon was hired to turn someone else's movie into "The Avengers," and he gave it his best shot, which frankly was a shitty situation. It doesn't mean he deserves online hate, anymore than Zack did all this time from some of his more vocal detractors. The fact that I like what he came up with for JL is secondary to this particular part of the issue.

    A sort of aggressive, unrealistic optimism is what I liked about the #SnyderCut movement in the first place. We shouldn't be putting people down, especially now that we're finally on top for once. It's a very bad look - for anyone.
    I agree with what you said, that is fair. I guess I just felt that the crap Snyder dealt with also needed to be acknowledged as well.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 05-21-2020 at 04:25 AM.

  10. #1885
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I agree with what you said, that is fair. I guess I just felt that the crap Snyder dealt with also needed to be acknowledged as well.
    Yeah, I agree with that too. Online harassment is always bad. Star Wars actors get it the worst I guess. Nobody deserves it.

    Also, since I didn't get the chance to respond to your first edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Remember the homophobic slurs that were so common in the backlash to Batman and Robin?
    I actually don't, I was about five when it came out, but heck if it doesn't surprise me. Dang, people can be seriously shitty sometimes. Disgustingly bigoted, at worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That being said, I'm glad you liked something about the JL theatrical version.
    Thanks! I'm glad I do too.
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  11. #1886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    If Super-Heroes tried harder to be kids' media more of the time, I think more fans would be okay with them being kids' media - but they're sure dedicated to being "grown up", pretty much constantly since the late '80s - or at least it's an option they've dedicated a lot of time and energy to keeping on the table.

    I mean look, my two favorite non-comic portrayals of Superman in the last ten years have been Batman v Superman, a movie that deals with relatively complex issues of morality and apathy, of unintended consequences for one's actions and of being blinded to the "you" in "the other" - and Justice League Action, a goofy cartoon where Booster Gold tried to build Jurassic Park with a time machine because he didn't watch very far into the movie and thought that it was a good idea based on the first half hour.

    The people who make super-hero media are pretty invested in the idea that they're at least capable of being "grown-up," and I don't think that's going to change.

    So maybe they should not put any stock in national stereotypes and other problematic tropes.
    I agree with this. The problem though is I always feel like certain adults and young adults have a stigma against kid entertainment and feel it's less appealing. I've constantly run into DC fans praising DC for it's more mature and gory stories that's more " realistic" while calling Marvel stuff for kids.

    It's fine if they like mature and gritty DC stories but it seems like anything that appeals to a family or younger person then that automatically makes it kiddy which is kind of insulting.

  12. #1887
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    If Super-Heroes tried harder to be kids' media more of the time, I think more fans would be okay with them being kids' media - but they're sure dedicated to being "grown up", pretty much constantly since the late '80s - or at least it's an option they've dedicated a lot of time and energy to keeping on the table...The people who make super-hero media are pretty invested in the idea that they're at least capable of being "grown-up," and I don't think that's going to change.

    So maybe they should not put any stock in national stereotypes and other problematic tropes.
    I agree with this. The problem though is I always feel like certain adults and young adults have a stigma against kid entertainment and feel it's less appealing. I've constantly run into DC fans praising DC for it's more mature and gory stories that's more " realistic" while calling Marvel stuff for kids.

    It's fine if they like mature and gritty DC stories but it seems like anything that appeals to a family or younger person then that automatically makes it kiddy which is kind of insulting.
    Yeah, being kid-lit didn't seem to slow Rowling's Potter franchise down even one little bit. That said, I fear Shockingjustice has a good point. There are too many fans that came up in a time where superhero comics carried a stigma. Marvel has always seemed less sensitive to this, but then, they didn't have people mocking Batman'66 (which has since become something of an iconic treasure), or Schumacher's Batman and Robin.

    Still, I've long thought it a mistake for DC to steer so hard away from kids. That's the long-term future. I have to wonder if they look nostalgically back on 1980, when NTT and LoSH ruled the newstands with writing that consciously went after an older reader. These times are different than 1980, just as the market of 1980 was different from that of 1956.

  13. #1888
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    There is nothing in any of DCs main books a child couldnt read. It might say 13+ on the cover but you could be in primary school and read and enjoy it too.

  14. #1889
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    I don't know if this is a controversial opinion or not, but I don't get the interest in this Snyder cut Justice League. I seriously, seriously doubt the movie is all of a sudden going to turn good. I'm pretty confident it will just be a different flavor of bad. And the Justice League movie and Snyder's other DC movies are such dumpster fires that I don't have any interest in them at all.

  15. #1890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I don't know if this is a controversial opinion or not, but I don't get the interest in this Snyder cut Justice League. I seriously, seriously doubt the movie is all of a sudden going to turn good. I'm pretty confident it will just be a different flavor of bad. And the Justice League movie and Snyder's other DC movies are such dumpster fires that I don't have any interest in them at all.
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