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  1. #3856
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    DC, if only by implication (see the rest of that comment I posted). There have also been fans who have stated unironically that they don't have an issue with Batman torturing people as long he doesn't kill them.
    That's DC comics. I meant among us. A lot of fans who didn't like stuff like DCEU Batman killing aren't fond of an overly brutal Batman who tortures people in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Compared to the crap he's pulled in the past decades, especially towards other heroes, Batman killing his foes would be the least objectionable thing he's done. If only because it would (hopefully) be limited to his villains as opposed to his friends and family.
    He'd still abuse the other heroes too. I have no faith that it wouldn't still be a shitshow all around.

    We should be subtracting stuff from the bad stuff he does as DC ruins his character, not add to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It isn't an issue for the genre so much as an issue for DC comics. They can't kill off the Joker and other villains permanently because they know it will piss off fans. Adaptations have little problem with killing off villains because those are designed to end. Superhero movies have been killing off villains since Superman 2 and the MCU is still going strong despite killing off most of its villains.
    One of the things about the films being designed to end is that it works for the villains going to jail and never escaping and/or being reformed. The Phantom Zone criminals in MOS for example got sucked back in and it doesn't seem like there were any plans for them to ever get back out again, unlike the recurring extinction level threat they always pose in the comics.

    Killing Zod was an even more useless decision: if he got pulled back into the PF, he'd likely never return anyway because films are a finite narrative.

  2. #3857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There's always been the "acceptable losses" argument, the idea that recurring villains eventually become such an issue that a hero not putting them down (or allowing others to do so) is increasing chaos and pain in the world, rather than reducing it. It's a logical and valid argument, but one too rooted in reality to fully apply to this genre, I think. Yes, lots of innocent people would be alive if someone had killed the Joker years ago and in the real world this would be seen as a massive failure of the justice system....but this is superheroes and the genre isn't built for that kind of thinking.

    We've seen this kind of argument rise up more and more over the last couple decades, I believe, because of the extended duration of America's wars in the middle east. We've spent a generation watching our siblings, our parents, our spouses and friends, all go fight "evil" and we accept that they'll take lives while doing so. If it's okay to kill bin laden, then why isn't it okay for Batman to kill Joker?

    We've come to view our superheroes as soldiers rather than first responders.
    Recurring villains is a problem because comics never evolve, not because justice failed

  3. #3858
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    We've come to view our superheroes as soldiers rather than first responders.
    This right here.

  4. #3859
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    I think the Orange Lantern Corps is woefully underused.

  5. #3860
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    Recurring villains is a problem because comics never evolve, not because justice failed
    Well really these things go hand in hand.

    The business reality is that characters (heroes and villains) are popular and financially worth reusing. So heroes can't kill because guys like Lex and Joker help sell comics. Or, if the hero does kill, they only end up killing the unpopular ones.

    And that requirement kind of forces a failure of the justice system within the fiction. You can do stories about the bad guy in jail, but in order for the character to retain their full usefulness, at some point they gotta escape. Which means the justice system failed.

    Of course, the entire genre is built on the premise that the justice system doesn't work anyway. If superheroes believed in the system, they'd be cops and firefighters and politicians instead of wearing masks, taking the law into their own hands, and keeping their identities secret.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #3861
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    It's almost as if the superhero genre is just inherently silly and unrealistic and letting these things slide is almost a prerequisite to enjoying the fiction

    Worrying about the real world implications and inevitable cyclical nature of the villains escaping just sounds too aggravating to be worth it.

  7. #3862
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's almost as if the superhero genre is just inherently silly and unrealistic and letting these things slide is almost a prerequisite to enjoying the fiction

    Worrying about the real world implications and inevitable cyclical nature of the villains escaping just sounds too aggravating to be worth it.
    But then how will my coworkers take my hobbies and I seriously?

    Whenever someone asks if I'm too old to be reading comics, I just tell them "no" and give them a look of "why would you think that" and they usually make a case for why I don't need to respect their opinion of me anymore. lol
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  8. #3863
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It's almost as if the superhero genre is just inherently silly and unrealistic and letting these things slide is almost a prerequisite to enjoying the fiction
    I know, crazy right?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  9. #3864
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    Batman and the Flash have the least formidable villains

  10. #3865
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well really these things go hand in hand.

    The business reality is that characters (heroes and villains) are popular and financially worth reusing. So heroes can't kill because guys like Lex and Joker help sell comics. Or, if the hero does kill, they only end up killing the unpopular ones.

    And that requirement kind of forces a failure of the justice system within the fiction. You can do stories about the bad guy in jail, but in order for the character to retain their full usefulness, at some point they gotta escape. Which means the justice system failed.

    Of course, the entire genre is built on the premise that the justice system doesn't work anyway. If superheroes believed in the system, they'd be cops and firefighters and politicians instead of wearing masks, taking the law into their own hands, and keeping their identities secret.
    The justice system is a failure in the real world, depending upon your personal perspective.

    I honestly don't think too much about fictional villains getting away to plot evil when real life evildoers do the same thing.

  11. #3866
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's DC comics. I meant among us. A lot of fans who didn't like stuff like DCEU Batman killing aren't fond of an overly brutal Batman who tortures people in general.
    In a way having Batman beat confessions out of people makes him a weaker character. He's supposedly the world's greatest detective... and he relies on forced confessions? Oh and Riddler clues don't count as detective work. Riddler WANTS them to be solved after all. Real detective work would be finding something the Riddler didn't dangle in front of him like a carrot on a stick.

  12. #3867
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    Wow is that the truth! You can incite an insurrection among many other treasonous acts caught on tape and not only remain at large but start your own social media platform so you can spread your crazy unhindered. But if you have weed or coke on you off to jail you go.

  13. #3868
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Batman and the Flash have the least formidable villains
    I don't know how you can say that when Joker has beaten Flash and Superman worse than any of their villains
    The J-man

  14. #3869
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Batman and the Flash have the least formidable villains
    Gorilla Grodd is not a weak villain, and any villain with super speed is automatically top tier power wise because super speed is the most broken power their is.

  15. #3870
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's DC comics. I meant among us. A lot of fans who didn't like stuff like DCEU Batman killing aren't fond of an overly brutal Batman who tortures people in general.
    I've seen plenty fans defend Bruce's torture, abuse and a whole bunch of other stuff that is far less defensible than him killing. On this very site, I've seen fans defend his abuse of the Batfamily (usually because they don't like them).

    There might be some fans who dislike Bruce using torture but it doesn't draw nearly as much controversy as him killing. And usually when they do claim complain about him using torture, it's when it is accompanied by him using lethal force.

    He'd still abuse the other heroes too. I have no faith that it wouldn't still be a shitshow all around.
    Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But killing the Joker certainly isn't on the same level as, say, what he did to Dick after the latter nearly died in Forever Evil.

    We should be subtracting stuff from the bad stuff he does as DC ruins his character, not add to it.
    That presumes him killing at all is ruining his character.



    One of the things about the films being designed to end is that it works for the villains going to jail and never escaping and/or being reformed. The Phantom Zone criminals in MOS for example got sucked back in and it doesn't seem like there were any plans for them to ever get back out again, unlike the recurring extinction level threat they always pose in the comics.

    Killing Zod was an even more useless decision: if he got pulled back into the PF, he'd likely never return anyway because films are a finite narrative.
    It being a finite story means they are under no obligation to keep the villains alive. I'm not saying they have to kill them off but them dying isn't a problem if they aren't coming back. Might as well close the door on them completely.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-24-2021 at 12:17 AM.

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