Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[mathew101281]

Well, a kid playing hero, a woman fighting for glory, guy being guilt tripped and obligated. Yeah! Not personal or selfish at all. Not to worry modern superman comics is all about superman's savior complex. So, they all suck.

I woudn't say Wonderwoman fights for glory.

[manwhohaseverything]

I woudn't say Wonderwoman fights for glory.

It felt like she left the island to prove something. It felt personal.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Finally,Superman caring about governments is pretty funny. The guy wouldn't exist if he respected system. He only exist because the system is corrupt. Moreover, it wouldn't be might makes right if a person acts with will and representation of the people and justice is served,Not vengeance. Superman not acting at all has been bogus.

Superman's character evolution over the decades changed so that he does more than just fight a corrupt system. Considering how many people there are, it's impossible for a single person to act as sole representation of the people's will. New Frontier offered an interesting take in Superman's loyalty to the US government vs. Wonder Woman not so much caring about politics and only doing what she felt was right.

The "respecting governments" thing is a slippery slope with Superman though. He tries to avoid having antagonistic relationships with duly elected authority, but outside a few exceptions he's more likely to tell the government to sod off and stay out of his business than he is to support them. Even Zach Snyder got that balance right. But having never seen the cartoon I can't really speak on the particulars here.

Superman will tell a government to stay out of his business if he's acting to save lives, but the Elite were too proactive. In the movie, there was a war between Bialya and Pokolistan. Superman urged the leaders to sit down and negotiate peace and The Elite outright killed them before negotiation could even happen. Black read their minds and insisted that the war was going to only escalate and said "The only logical thing to do was slaughter the whole megillah and start all over. So congratulations, children, your leaders are all dead. Peace reigns supreme." There are a whole host of problems with that, and it's understandable why Superman doesn't operate that way.

Not so much controversial. But does anyone remember that political miniseries DC put out years ago that states each superhero’s political party leanings?

Is there a list for which party each DC superhero identifies as?

I can't remember what it was called, but I do remember Batman being more conservative and Wonder Woman liberal while Superman didn't reveal his leanings so as to not sway anyone.

[manwhohaseverything]

Superman's character evolution over the decades changed so that he does more than just fight a corrupt system. Considering how many people there are, it's impossible for a single person to act as sole representation of the people's will. New Frontier offered an interesting take in Superman's loyalty to the US government vs. Wonder Woman not so much caring about politics and only doing what she felt was right.

We can get consensus. I mean, democracy is a thing. Superman's character evolution caused by comics code mandated isn't exactly good or organic. Don't talk as if that evolution is in character . Batman went back.Moreover,a guy can get consensus of people's will in a authoritarian dictatorship very easily.For that to happen he needs to get out of his ivory tower or giant apartment in the middle of the city and walk among the people and live with them. There would be nothing but misery and fear around. Even Batman's shown to do that. Talk about truth and justice. Clark's entire persona is built around fear, not resolve. New frontier superman sucked. Period. He basically goes in "people will be afraid of us Diana" nonsense.That isn't altruism or doing the right thing. He is trying and failing to come of as doing the appropriate thing. That ain't siegel and shuster's superman. I am not interested in a man who has an image to protect. He not only victim blamed without helping or protecting. His reasoning wasn't about mob justice, It was the above. In an environment where there is no justice or no court. Mob justice is better than no justice. Either superman needed to create an environment that would allow fair trial in the village itself to mitigate mob justice afterwards Or the spaceman had no arguments. Point blank.
They should right a book called "whatever happened to the man of action" or " the death of the defender of the defenceless".

Diana might be wrong, but clark is absolutely wrong.

[Robanker]

It felt like she left the island to prove something. It felt personal.

I have never read a take on Wonder Woman that was all about glory other than, perhaps, Frank Miller's. I can't imagine his Wonder Woman cared about much. Every hero has a personal stake in the game, sure, but with Diana it's always been that she wants to help because man's world has been lead astray. We're consumed with war, greed, bigotry and all sorts of things that her culture doesn't deal with, or at least not on the same level. They're prepared to defend themselves, granted, but there are no civil wars. Either way, it comes down to Diana seeing that people can use her help, so she freely gives it.

Even in that New Frontier clip you posted. She broke up a ring of human trafficking and didn't apologize about it. She didn't do it for glory, though she did want those women to feel proud that they broke the chains that bound them and got the justice she felt they deserved. Nothing about that was "look how dope I am, I saved you." It was entirely her trying to right a wrong.

This is pretty much part and parcel for most of DC's characters. They're given the chance to help others and do so, sometimes at great personal risk, because ultimately it's the right thing to do. Even Batman, who is compelled by his parent's death at first, has long since moved beyond that as his motivation. If you revived the Waynes, he'd still be Batman because he feels Gotham needs him and he wants to help. He wouldn't just hang up the cowl and let Dick take over. He'd do his part to help.

Billy Batson was always portrayed as a kid who was given the power to do the right thing and he did so because he was fundamentally a good kid. The New 52 put him in a very bad starting position, but his good nature won out by the end. Sure, as time went on, drama was weaved in, but most the big DC characters do what they do out of altruism at some respect.

Superman, like Billy, is about having the ability to help, so he does. It's not even a savior complex like you enjoy ranting about, it's that the Kents instilled in him the concept of being a good person. In every era of Superman, even the golden age, he's following his moral compass and using his abilities to help out. It's not for glory. It's not because he wants to flex on people and is looking for bullies to do so. It's because he has decided to be the change he wants to see. If that reads as savior complex, that's honestly a depressing thought. Being better than base impulses isn't a savior complex.

[Ascended]

You brought it on yourself, sir! I jest, of course. It's only two years of living Kents. Clark will inspire the Legion again if you're on good behavior.

I'll be good! I'll be sooooo good! I promise!

And don't worry, dude. If you ever need a bulwark to hide behind when it comes to hating a popular story, I'm the guy who often claims DKR is only good for the first half and trash afterwards.

I feel the same way about Birthright, though that doesn't seem a uncommon opinion. I haven't read TDK in years, I'll have to read it again and see if I agree with you.

Superman will tell a government to stay out of his business if he's acting to save lives, but the Elite were too proactive. In the movie, there was a war between Bialya and Pokolistan. Superman urged the leaders to sit down and negotiate peace and The Elite outright killed them before negotiation could even happen. Black read their minds and insisted that the war was going to only escalate and said "The only logical thing to do was slaughter the whole megillah and start all over. So congratulations, children, your leaders are all dead. Peace reigns supreme." There are a whole host of problems with that, and it's understandable why Superman doesn't operate that way.

It sounds like the cartoon did a better job with the story than the comic did.

If the comic had Clark provide some quality arguments for his position and Black refused to listen and it ended up in a fight, good enough. It's superhero comics so there's almost certainly going to be punching. But if you put your character in a legit debate, they need to be able to defend their stance, and 775's failure to do that for Clark really just kills the whole thing for me.

Which is a shame, because I love Black and the Elite and the basic plot is a good one.

[manwhohaseverything]

I have never read a take on Wonder Woman that was all about glory other than, perhaps, Frank Miller's. I can't imagine his Wonder Woman cared about much. Every hero has a personal stake in the game, sure, but with Diana it's always been that she wants to help because man's world has been lead astray. We're consumed with war, greed, bigotry and all sorts of things that her culture doesn't deal with, or at least not on the same level. They're prepared to defend themselves, granted, but there are no civil wars. Either way, it comes down to Diana seeing that people can use her help, so she freely gives it.

Even in that New Frontier clip you posted. She broke up a ring of human trafficking and didn't apologize about it. She didn't do it for glory, though she did want those women to feel proud that they broke the chains that bound them and got the justice she felt they deserved. Nothing about that was "look how dope I am, I saved you." It was entirely her trying to right a wrong.

This is pretty much part and parcel for most of DC's characters. They're given the chance to help others and do so, sometimes at great personal risk, because ultimately it's the right thing to do. Even Batman, who is compelled by his parent's death at first, has long since moved beyond that as his motivation. If you revived the Waynes, he'd still be Batman because he feels Gotham needs him and he wants to help. He wouldn't just hang up the cowl and let Dick take over. He'd do his part to help.

Billy Batson was always portrayed as a kid who was given the power to do the right thing and he did so because he was fundamentally a good kid. The New 52 put him in a very bad starting position, but his good nature won out by the end. Sure, as time went on, drama was weaved in, but most the big DC characters do what they do out of altruism at some respect.

Superman, like Billy, is about having the ability to help, so he does. It's not even a savior complex like you enjoy ranting about, it's that the Kents instilled in him the concept of being a good person. In every era of Superman, even the golden age, he's following his moral compass and using his abilities to help out. It's not for glory. It's not because he wants to flex on people and is looking for bullies to do so. It's because he has decided to be the change he wants to see. If that reads as savior complex, that's honestly a depressing thought. Being better than base impulses isn't a savior complex.

Yeah! I will stick to my interpretation. Wonderwoman was itching for training and fighting in the movie, it wasn't because of natural instinct to get better. She did it to please her mother.the minute she got a chance to leave, she did. Sure, she pulls alot of "i fight for those who can't fignt for themselves nonsense" . But, that still doesn't matter. Right, the guy(superman ) lost his sentience and element of choice, became just a robot programed by his parent to be run by obligation like the menace in the spidermask. Atleast, in th savior nonsense he ain't that. Which moore even critiques, btw.For me, tommy might not be a hero. He is something that these idiots will never be including batgod. Only Human.You call these guys heroes. I don't see anything worth of value.

[Frontier]

Even in that New Frontier clip you posted. She broke up a ring of human trafficking and didn't apologize about it. She didn't do it for glory, though she did want those women to feel proud that they broke the chains that bound them and got the justice she felt they deserved. Nothing about that was "look how dope I am, I saved you." It was entirely her trying to right a wrong.

Honestly, and this is just me, but even Diana came off as compromised in that scene. Like, I get she wanted to help these women and get them justice but I don't think she would have straight up let them execute their slavers if she wasn't so frustrated with how ineffectual working for the government has made her.

Yeah! I will stick to my interpretation. Wonderwoman was itching for training and fighting in the movie, it wasn't because of natural instinct to get better. She did it to please her mother.the minute she got a chance to leave, she did. Sure, she pulls alot of "i fight for those who can't fignt for themselves nonsense" . But, that still doesn't matter. Right, the guy(superman ) lost his sentience and element of choice, became just a robot programed by his parent to be run by obligation like the menace in the spidermask. Atleast, in th savior nonsense he ain't that. Which moore even critiques, btw.For me, tommy might not be a hero. He is something that these idiots will never be including batgod. Only Human.You call these guys heroes. I don't see anything worth of value.

Of course it matters. It's her central motivation.

[manwhohaseverything]

Of course it matters. It's her central motivation.

I meant for me. I don't know if it's her central motivation. Her actions felt differently.

[Frontier]

I meant for me. I don't know if it's her central motivation. Her actions felt differently.

It was the main reason she went to Man's World after she heard about WWI. I think it's very disingenuous take on her character to believe that wasn't her main reason for leaving Themyscira.

[Robanker]

Honestly, and this is just me, but even Diana came off as compromised in that scene. Like, I get she wanted to help these women and get them justice but I don't think she would have straight up let them execute their slavers if she wasn't so frustrated with how ineffectual working for the government has made her.

Of course it matters. It's her central motivation.

Oh, she was compromised, but I'm arguing that she is doing those things because she thinks it's the right, just thing to do. Not weighing in on if it is because that scene is supposed to illustrate that both paragons are misguided in some fashion, but Clark ultimately is failing by virtue of not acting at all.

Both of them are supposed to be responsible for how things are going wrong but for different reasons. Diana enabled mob justice and Kal did nothing. Both come around by the end, but ultimately, right or wrong, Diana acted in a way she felt best represented helping the downtrodden. If nothing else, that's still a lot more like Wonder Woman than usual "misguided" Dianas fare. At least for modern emphasis on warrior culture Wonder Woman. I'm looking at you, Injustice.

[manwhohaseverything]

I might understand this as portrayal of compromised people. But, this nonsense is what people expect from superman now. They expect superman to be this. That's nonsensical.

It was the main reason she went to Man's World after she heard about WWI. I think it's very disingenuous take on her character to believe that wasn't her main reason for leaving Themyscira.

She went because there was a war to end all wars happening in man's world.Diana seems to have this idealised view amazon's legends and how they resolved conflicts in man's world. She grew up with those legends. Its like me and my view phantom. She wanted to do the same. Since, it was part of "glorious" past and their fights with the great villain ares.After, being said no by her mother many times. Her determination grew. The minute, she lost someone precious to her, her heroic fantasy broke. But, i give her credit cause she kept doing her thing. She became the hero. I judge a character by their actions, not propaganda. Wonderwoman can pull a superman all she wants. The character's story drove a different point for me.

Contrast that with man of steel. Pa asks him to hide himself. He makes a fuss and throws a fit. But, he does that to the very end because he knows what's at stake. He creates the fake persona for pa. That's entirely from goldenage, btw. There was no glory to be had. His activities and he himself was a controversial figure(goldenage) . He got nothing out of being superman. Yet, he kept on doing it for two main reasons. Instinct, deep down for all the scary and goofy things a superman does. He is driven by the Instinct to protect and help. Choice, at first it might have been instinct. But, then it becomes a choice. He becomes superman.There wasn't a sky father or earth father asking him to do the **** he does. That's goldenage superman. Superman does the right thing . Because he cannot rest while good people get hurt and evil with power triumphed solely because of that reason.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Superman's character evolution caused by comics code mandated isn't exactly good or organic. Don't talk as if that evolution is in character.

It's more an evolution/changing of the times. Today's Superman isn't the 1980's Superman who isn't the 1950's Superman.

It sounds like the cartoon did a better job with the story than the comic did.

If the comic had Clark provide some quality arguments for his position and Black refused to listen and it ended up in a fight, good enough. It's superhero comics so there's almost certainly going to be punching. But if you put your character in a legit debate, they need to be able to defend their stance, and 775's failure to do that for Clark really just kills the whole thing for me.

Which is a shame, because I love Black and the Elite and the basic plot is a good one.

Fair enough. Joe Kelly wrote both the comic book and the movie. I guess since the movie is longer, Kelly was able to examine the philosophies of each side more.

[manwhohaseverything]

It's more an evolution/changing of the times. Today's Superman isn't the 1980's Superman who isn't the 1950's Superman.

I have specifically traced back biggest changes. It does happen due to comics code. Superman's third origin story by bill finger marked the changes to superman. Yes, it was a nail on the coffin of the original superman. This was entirely mandated by comics code. If this changing times has done to superman then i want the original superman and i would happily read something from 1938. There is a reason frank miller tore this superman apart. He sucks. Point blank.

This guy doesn't do the right thing. He tries to do the appropriate thing for the applauds.

Luthor is entirely right.Too bad, the show was all about showing slippery slope nonsense. Being a totalitarian isn't right thing Nor does Superman like chains. So, this was nonsensical portrayal. Comics, their idiosyncrasies and dogmas.

It's kinda ironic, the one thing doomsday clock is right about. There will always be a superman around. Even if he doesn't wear big s on his chest. A strongman who fights for truth and justice in a laughable outfit .

[Frontier]

She went because there was a war to end all wars happening in man's world.Diana seems to have this idealised view amazon's legends and how they resolved conflicts in man's world. She grew up with those legends. Its like me and my view phantom. She wanted to do the same. Since, it was part of "glorious" past and their fights with the great villain ares.After, being said no by her mother many times. Her determination grew. The minute, she lost someone precious to her, her heroic fantasy broke. But, i give her credit cause she kept doing her thing. She became the hero. I judge a character by their actions, not propaganda. Wonderwoman can pull a superman all she wants. The character's story drove a different point for me.

Contrast that with man of steel. Pa asks him to hide himself. He makes a fuss and throws a fit. But, he does that to the very end because he knows what's at stake. He creates the fake persona for pa. That's entirely from goldenage, btw. There was no glory to be had. His activities and he himself was a controversial figure(goldenage) . He got nothing out of being superman. Yet, he kept on doing it for two main reasons. Instinct, deep down for all the scary and goofy things a superman does. He is driven by the Instinct to protect and help. Choice, at first it might have been instinct. But, then it becomes a choice. He becomes superman.There wasn't a sky father or earth father asking him to do the **** he does. That's goldenage superman. Superman does the right thing . Because he cannot rest while good people get hurt and evil with power triumphed solely because of that reason.

I judge people by their actions as well. I don't see the woman who charged into No Man's Land as doing it for the glory. She was working from her idealism but it wasn't for glory, it was because she believed in the Amazon way of life and in humanity.