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  1. #1516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    But with Supergirl and Batgirl it wasn't as clear--because they are supposed to be younger than Clark and Bruce. And changing the names would have been a headache for DC's licensing department.
    The first Batgirl (Betty Kane) was teenage girl arround the same age as Robin, and the original Supergirl was also a teenager when she became a hero.

  2. #1517
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    And you could say there's an equivalency between Supergirl and Superboy, as well as Batgirl and the Boy Wonder.

  3. #1518
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    And you could say there's an equivalency between Supergirl and Superboy, as well as Batgirl and the Boy Wonder.
    I can't agree with Batgirl and the Boy Wonder being an appropriate equivalency (Bat-Girl would have been an appropriate parallel). They were in completely different places/roles, and different ages (one adult, one child). I think this is really well highlighted by the fact that they quit calling Robin "The Boy Wonder" when he went to college. The name was no longer suitable, and he became "The Teen Wonder" as that was seemingly deemed more fitting/mature/grown than "boy" for someone 18. But Barbara, an adult, is still Batgirl. Then they made newly-adult Steph become one too, even though her own name that she already had had no such age-related language in it. I've no doubt it was because of branding. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

    I don't have a problem with Kara becoming Supergirl - she was still a kid. Even keeping it for while into adulthood from inertia is fine. It's assigning the name to someone already an adult that really bugs me.

  4. #1519
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I can't agree with Batgirl and the Boy Wonder being an appropriate equivalency (Bat-Girl would have been an appropriate parallel). They were in completely different places/roles, and different ages (one adult, one child). I think this is really well highlighted by the fact that they quit calling Robin "The Boy Wonder" when he went to college. The name was no longer suitable, and he became "The Teen Wonder" as that was seemingly deemed more fitting/mature/grown than "boy" for someone 18. But Barbara, an adult, is still Batgirl. Then they made newly-adult Steph become one too, even though her own name that she already had had no such age-related language in it. I've no doubt it was because of branding. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

    I don't have a problem with Kara becoming Supergirl - she was still a kid. Even keeping it for while into adulthood from inertia is fine. It's assigning the name to someone already an adult that really bugs me.
    While I generally agree, they're not changing "Robin," but his epithet. It's entirely branding, and the nature of the best is to go with the most marketable title. Batgirl is what's known in the zeitgeist, so that's what will continue. It's not just unique to women. They tried to solve this problem in the '90s with the Legion. Lightning Lad became Livewire. He's Lightning Lad again. Green Lantern was Sentinel for a while, but we know who Alan Scott returned to despite the confusion it causes for new people.

    A lot of names and epithets don't really ring inherently true anymore. Superman is still the Man of Steel when steel isn't held to the same standard it used to be. He was named as such because it was considered an incredibly durable metal but we've got stronger alloys today, yet he's still Man of Steel/Tomorrow (and some argue he's a vestige of yesterday as well). Barry is The Flash, the Fastest Man Alive^TM (not counting Wally, possibly Thawne).

    With Barbara specifically, I wish she stayed Oracle, but you can argue she's Batgirl again strictly because it was stolen from her and she won't let someone else define who she is. She went back to that time in her life and took what she felt was hers. It's not like she retired of her own volition.

    Ultimately, you could argue plot reasons for why these characters who don't really age all that much to begin with want to retain their youthful titles, but it's marketing. These are corporately owned characters and that's the nature of the beast. Not a hill I want to die on.

  5. #1520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's really about keeping the register of the language the same for both sexes or between two different ethnic groups. If you use one register for one group and a different register for the other, then it indicates an imbalance between them, where one is on another level than the other.
    Yeah, that’s the argument people are making about this whole “Karen is still calling herself Power Girl despite being an adult woman” thing.

    It's perfectly okay for an eighty year old woman to have a boyfriend who is a ninety year old man, and she is his girlfriend. In fact, it would be a kind of discrimination based on age if we said they can't be called girlfriend and boyfriend. The terms for each are on the same register of language.
    If the guy was called a “man friend” while the woman was called a girlfriend that would be a problem and would actually have something to do with what is being discussed.

    I still hear sportscasters--especially during the Olympics--referring to men's team and yet ladies' team. Man and lady are two different registers of the language. If they use lady for a female athlete, then by rights they should use gentleman for the male equivalent.
    Once again, you are making a false equivalency. “Lady” indicates that the female person in question is an adult.

    And now you have DC's Super Hero Girls--with clearly full-grown female characters included in the toy line.
    Those iterations of the characters are depicted as young girls not adults.

    As a man, I'm in no position to dictate what women can call themselves. I think it's up to women, speaking with many different voices, to decide what their terms of reference ought to be.
    We are not talking about a real life woman who is choosing to refer to herself as a girl. We are talking about a fictional female character calling herself a girl despite clearly being a woman as the art work all too often likes to remind us.

  6. #1521
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    i enjoy a lot of titles far more than Doomsday Clock this week
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

    currently following:
    • DC: Red Hood: The Hill
    • Marvel: TBD
    • Manga (Shonen/Seinen): One Piece, My Hero, Dandadan, Jujutsu Kaisen, Kaiju No. 8, Reincarnation of The Veteran Soldier, Oblivion Rouge, ORDEAL, The Breaker: Eternal Force

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

  7. #1522
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    i enjoy a lot of titles far more than Doomsday Clock this week
    That's a paddlin' if I ever saw one.

    34uws.jpg

  8. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    i enjoy a lot of titles far more than Doomsday Clock this week
    Doomsday Clock's last issue only benefits the writers who can tell stories with the worlds/ timelines introduced. Fans are the ones left with a broken, contradictory current status quo.

  9. #1524
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    That's a paddlin' if I ever saw one.

    34uws.jpg
    i said what i said, do what you must

    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

    currently following:
    • DC: Red Hood: The Hill
    • Marvel: TBD
    • Manga (Shonen/Seinen): One Piece, My Hero, Dandadan, Jujutsu Kaisen, Kaiju No. 8, Reincarnation of The Veteran Soldier, Oblivion Rouge, ORDEAL, The Breaker: Eternal Force

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

  10. #1525
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 01-03-2020 at 10:24 AM.
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

    currently following:
    • DC: Red Hood: The Hill
    • Marvel: TBD
    • Manga (Shonen/Seinen): One Piece, My Hero, Dandadan, Jujutsu Kaisen, Kaiju No. 8, Reincarnation of The Veteran Soldier, Oblivion Rouge, ORDEAL, The Breaker: Eternal Force

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

  11. #1526
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    I tend to agree. He comes young, is adopted by a local family. Fully looks and sounds like like the locals. The vast majority of people who interact with him in everyday life have no idea he isn't a native. And, in the versions I prefer, he doesn't even remember the world he left and only learns about it in adolescence or adulthood, and the culture around him the only one he knows. He's absolutely "one of us" in that sense.

  12. #1527
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    Would Martian Manhunter be a better example?
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nonetheless):
    DC: Currently figuring that out
    Marvel: Read above
    Image: Killadelphia, Nightmare Blog
    Other: The Antagonist, Something is Killing the Children, Avatar: TLAB
    Manga: My Hero Academia, MHA: Vigilanties, Soul Eater: the Perfect Edition, Berserk, Hunter X Hunter, Witch Hat Atelier, Kaiju No. 8

  13. #1528
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    I mean, you could argue writers don't emphasize it enough, but Superman is an immigrant story. He wasn't born here and hails from an alien culture and he has to grapple with both of his heritage's growing up.

    He literally has two names aside from his Superhero name.
    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    Would Martian Manhunter be a better example?
    Or Supergirl considering she actually grew up on Krypton.

  14. #1529
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Doomsday Clock's last issue only benefits the writers who can tell stories with the worlds/ timelines introduced. Fans are the ones left with a broken, contradictory current status quo.
    No matter what they do with it, they'll probably get some aspects of the old continuity wrong. For instance, they'll probably have Earth 1985 Superboy working on the farm even though his family moved into town early in his childhood.
    Assassinate Putin!

  15. #1530
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    No matter what they do with it, they'll probably get some aspects of the old continuity wrong. For instance, they'll probably have Earth 1985 Superboy working on the farm even though his family moved into town early in his childhood.
    You can make a case that they already sort of have. They had an image with John Stewart with the JLA, but he wasn't a member of that team despite being the active Green Lantern at the time.

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