Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Adekis]

Yeah, I agreed that it was lazy or "too easy" for Dick to be suddenly bi, but Tim and Kon? That ship is real as it gets.

[Shockingjustice]

I feel like you will more likely get a Cyborg and beast boy pairing before they turn Dick Bi.

[Midnight_v]

If that's the case then the solution is simple, they are gonna have to nut up and start telling that demo that they aren't the priority any more. if you want stories from the 90s or 80s or 70s then you should go read your old **** famo. the industry is taking a hit across the board.

They're taking a hit across the board because they've already tried doing what you suggest here. ANAD Marvel, Nu52. A few other desperate attempts that read off as "Hello, fellow teenagers".
More importantly though. Its easier to say that when you don't have to take a MAJOR HIT financially to get there. Though, I actually feel like Marvel "DID" make a Flippin statement like "THIS DEMO isn't our priority anymore".


That being said. . . they have the avengers movies and other media to get young peoples interests at least, but... really... Those 45 year-olds (and really 30 somethings) have money, and kids, hell some of them have grand kids. . and as much as companies look for "investment in the younger generations", the finance comes from the wealthy Boomers, and Gen-X'ers and they have a LOOOONG time to go and a very loooong time to be entertained.
I personally could not suggest a current comic book from Dc Or Marvel to any young person when....

Manga Exists, and One Punch man and My Hero Academia, and so many Others are full of new things and new characters that people both young and old love and are excited about....
Thats why this statment rings so false to me to begin with:

.... That said, most comic fans tend to go ape **** when told that they are no longer the target demo anymore for certain things. Hell, they even go ape **** on absolutely new characters simply because they're new. I...

When Video Games exist... and frankly young people have SOOO many entertainment options. There are a lot of things to consider on the topic on the financial hits of the "Big 2" other than....
"Those evil old Whyt fellas" hahaha its laughable.
Its not about demographics its about accessibility, its about cost, and its about dare I say... "Quality" but when you start telling the truth about "Quality" people start saying reckless silly things like
"Omg don't attack muh creatorzzz!!!"
but I do agree with this though:

It doesn't help that a few of the most popular writers do nothing but rewrite old stories from the '80s and earlier, only adding more decapitations.

Its the wrong direction. One thing the comics company is caught between that DOESN'T blame the customers are ideas like this:
Writing well is difficult. Copying is easy
Civil War, Civil War 2, Crisis on infinite earths... Crisis on Infinite earths 2, Crisis on Infinite Earths New/Marvels Boogaloo, Secret Wars 3. Kree/Skrull war/ Emypyre. Ultimate Comics Children of Tommorow/Krakoa. Dark Avengers/Forever Evil (i'm compressing here we know how manytimes that premise is spewed)

Secondly, ever increasing stakes looses interests to LOTS of people, every increasing violence loses its shock value... (especially when one of the main tropes is "No one dies in comics"), but in my unpopular opinion
Manga does that better too... there are arenas and night clubs selling out to watch the big Goku Fight in some countries. DBZ manages to do "Ever increasing odds better", and meanwhile... people in manga have story
arch. A beginning a middle and an end, and no I'm not suggesting spidey grow up and have kids or that Kingdom Come should be where we war in DC books right now.
I'm saying that the medium we've chosen to invest in and love and follow has problems that go deeper than "Old Fans are holding us back" thats just a lie.

The medium is held back by itself.

I personally would LOVE instead of what we have now which... again my unpopular opinion... Doomsday Clock - Cop-out where get this *Everything* exists! ... I would have loved it if
DC had said.
*this* is our direction for the Next 15-20 years* We're going to write ourselves toward Kingdom Come ... Batman Beyond... Future's end a mix... Doesn't matter pick a future show some discipline and go there.

You're not going to appease everyone... that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be creating the best works you can and working on getting those works into people hands.

[DrNewGod]

They're taking a hit across the board because they've already tried doing what you suggest here. ANAD Marvel, Nu52. A few other desperate attempts that read off as "Hello, fellow teenagers".
More importantly though. Its easier to say that when you don't have to take a MAJOR HIT financially to get there. Though, I actually feel like Marvel "DID" make a Flippin statement like "THIS DEMO isn't our priority anymore".


That being said. . . they have the avengers movies and other media to get young peoples interests at least, but... really... Those 45 year-olds (and really 30 somethings) have money, and kids, hell some of them have grand kids. . and as much as companies look for "investment in the younger generations", the finance comes from the wealthy Boomers, and Gen-X'ers and they have a LOOOONG time to go and a very loooong time to be entertained.
I personally could not suggest a current comic book from Dc Or Marvel to any young person when....

Manga Exists, and One Punch man and My Hero Academia, and so many Others are full of new things and new characters that people both young and old love and are excited about....
Thats why this statment rings so false to me to begin with:

When Video Games exist... and frankly young people have SOOO many entertainment options. There are a lot of things to consider on the topic on the financial hits of the "Big 2" other than....
"Those evil old Whyt fellas" hahaha its laughable.
Its not about demographics its about accessibility, its about cost, and its about dare I say... "Quality" but when you start telling the truth about "Quality" people start saying reckless silly things like
"Omg don't attack muh creatorzzz!!!"
but I do agree with this though:


Its the wrong direction. One thing the comics company is caught between that DOESN'T blame the customers are ideas like this:
Writing well is difficult. Copying is easy
Civil War, Civil War 2, Crisis on infinite earths... Crisis on Infinite earths 2, Crisis on Infinite Earths New/Marvels Boogaloo, Secret Wars 3. Kree/Skrull war/ Emypyre. Ultimate Comics Children of Tommorow/Krakoa. Dark Avengers/Forever Evil (i'm compressing here we know how manytimes that premise is spewed)

Secondly, ever increasing stakes looses interests to LOTS of people, every increasing violence loses its shock value... (especially when one of the main tropes is "No one dies in comics"), but in my unpopular opinion
Manga does that better too... there are arenas and night clubs selling out to watch the big Goku Fight in some countries. DBZ manages to do "Ever increasing odds better", and meanwhile... people in manga have story
arch. A beginning a middle and an end, and no I'm not suggesting spidey grow up and have kids or that Kingdom Come should be where we war in DC books right now.
I'm saying that the medium we've chosen to invest in and love and follow has problems that go deeper than "Old Fans are holding us back" thats just a lie.

The medium is held back by itself.

I personally would LOVE instead of what we have now which... again my unpopular opinion... Doomsday Clock - Cop-out where get this *Everything* exists! ... I would have loved it if
DC had said.
*this* is our direction for the Next 15-20 years* We're going to write ourselves toward Kingdom Come ... Batman Beyond... Future's end a mix... Doesn't matter pick a future show some discipline and go there.

You're not going to appease everyone... that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be creating the best works you can and working on getting those works into people hands.

I've sometimes thought DC should run a couple of lines. One that starts as all-age, loose continuity, and one for the hardcore continuity fans that ages in real time. Over time, progress the continuity-intensive line toward a conclusion, allowing change, growth and death. The end need not be grisly or apocalyptic, but end the line's story. At the same time, mature the all-age line to something more continuity-intensive, and launch a new kid-friendly line.

[sifighter]

I've sometimes thought DC should run a couple of lines. One that starts as all-age, loose continuity, and one for the hardcore continuity fans that ages in real time. Over time, progress the continuity-intensive line toward a conclusion, allowing change, growth and death. The end need not be grisly or apocalyptic, but end the line's story. At the same time, mature the all-age line to something more continuity-intensive, and launch a new kid-friendly line.

I mean that is essentially what Earth 2 was before Crisis on Infinite Earths. Characters like Superman and Wonder Woman aged, Batman died, Powergirl showed up to fill in for Superman once he semi-retired to be editor, characters had kids who grew into the roles of the JSA and Infinity Inc. I am a relatively young-ish reader (in age, I've been reading for 15 years) but I still go back and buy those classic collections because that was cool to me.

[iron chimp]

You're not going to appease everyone... that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be creating the best works you can and working on getting those works into people hands.

There was a time when comics sought to piss people off, to get in peoples faces, and challenge them - dc had no problem doing that as did other publishers.

But now people demand homogenous mcdonalds advert 'we're all best pals respecting each other' crap and then complain when the books are bland.

[Agent Z]

There was a time when comics sought to piss people off, to get in peoples faces, and challenge them - dc had no problem doing that as did other publishers.

But now people demand homogenous mcdonalds advert 'we're all best pals respecting each other' crap and then complain when the books are bland.

DC's still doing that.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

DC's still doing that.

But they're doing it the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.

[king81992]

There was a time when comics sought to piss people off, to get in peoples faces, and challenge them - dc had no problem doing that as did other publishers.

But now people demand homogenous mcdonalds advert 'we're all best pals respecting each other' crap and then complain when the books are bland.

I would take a 'bland', competently written book over the edgy, nonsensical and dark crap that DC is putting out now.

[J. D. Guy]

They're taking a hit across the board because they've already tried doing what you suggest here. ANAD Marvel, Nu52. A few other desperate attempts that read off as "Hello, fellow teenagers".
More importantly though. Its easier to say that when you don't have to take a MAJOR HIT financially to get there. Though, I actually feel like Marvel "DID" make a Flippin statement like "THIS DEMO isn't our priority anymore".


That being said. . . they have the avengers movies and other media to get young peoples interests at least, but... really... Those 45 year-olds (and really 30 somethings) have money, and kids, hell some of them have grand kids. . and as much as companies look for "investment in the younger generations", the finance comes from the wealthy Boomers, and Gen-X'ers and they have a LOOOONG time to go and a very loooong time to be entertained.
I personally could not suggest a current comic book from Dc Or Marvel to any young person when....

Manga Exists, and One Punch man and My Hero Academia, and so many Others are full of new things and new characters that people both young and old love and are excited about....
Thats why this statment rings so false to me to begin with:

When Video Games exist... and frankly young people have SOOO many entertainment options. There are a lot of things to consider on the topic on the financial hits of the "Big 2" other than....
"Those evil old Whyt fellas" hahaha its laughable.
Its not about demographics its about accessibility, its about cost, and its about dare I say... "Quality" but when you start telling the truth about "Quality" people start saying reckless silly things like
"Omg don't attack muh creatorzzz!!!"
but I do agree with this though:


Its the wrong direction. One thing the comics company is caught between that DOESN'T blame the customers are ideas like this:
Writing well is difficult. Copying is easy
Civil War, Civil War 2, Crisis on infinite earths... Crisis on Infinite earths 2, Crisis on Infinite Earths New/Marvels Boogaloo, Secret Wars 3. Kree/Skrull war/ Emypyre. Ultimate Comics Children of Tommorow/Krakoa. Dark Avengers/Forever Evil (i'm compressing here we know how manytimes that premise is spewed)

Secondly, ever increasing stakes looses interests to LOTS of people, every increasing violence loses its shock value... (especially when one of the main tropes is "No one dies in comics"), but in my unpopular opinion
Manga does that better too... there are arenas and night clubs selling out to watch the big Goku Fight in some countries. DBZ manages to do "Ever increasing odds better", and meanwhile... people in manga have story
arch. A beginning a middle and an end, and no I'm not suggesting spidey grow up and have kids or that Kingdom Come should be where we war in DC books right now.
I'm saying that the medium we've chosen to invest in and love and follow has problems that go deeper than "Old Fans are holding us back" thats just a lie.

The medium is held back by itself.

I personally would LOVE instead of what we have now which... again my unpopular opinion... Doomsday Clock - Cop-out where get this *Everything* exists! ... I would have loved it if
DC had said.
*this* is our direction for the Next 15-20 years* We're going to write ourselves toward Kingdom Come ... Batman Beyond... Future's end a mix... Doesn't matter pick a future show some discipline and go there.

You're not going to appease everyone... that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be creating the best works you can and working on getting those works into people hands.

I don't agree with the narrative that New 52 or ANAD Marvel were failures, or even poor attempts. Not even close. This kinda goes into a direction I'm not feeling indulging right now, however, especially since that narrative is strongly carried by those who did not like New 52 or ANAD Marvel.

[Adekis]

I've sometimes thought DC should run a couple of lines. One that starts as all-age, loose continuity, and one for the hardcore continuity fans that ages in real time. Over time, progress the continuity-intensive line toward a conclusion, allowing change, growth and death. The end need not be grisly or apocalyptic, but end the line's story. At the same time, mature the all-age line to something more continuity-intensive, and launch a new kid-friendly line.

I think DC should probably have more than one line one way or the other, instead of just having one DCU that's ostensibly continuous but really just gets retconned all the bloody time. This line can have the more traditional version of the characters, this line can have more radical versions of them, like some of the New 52 for instance, and this line can have the forward moving progression and the heavy continuity.

I don't know if it's really realistic to want that though. There's always going to be development and continuity in some form, and over time that's always going to pile up - which I guess is your two-track plan's point.

[Otto Gruenwald]

Crisis on Infinite Earths was a mistake, and the biggest mistake DC ever made.

[SiegePerilous02]

Crisis on Infinite Earths was a mistake, and the biggest mistake DC ever made.

I can understand why they felt they needed to do something like that at the time, and it definitely saved them from going under. But in hindsight, yeah, it has a horrible legacy. And even as a story, it's not that great and is elevated by the artwork.

[DrNewGod]

Crisis on Infinite Earths was a mistake, and the biggest mistake DC ever made.

I can understand why they felt they needed to do something like that at the time, and it definitely saved them from going under. But in hindsight, yeah, it has a horrible legacy. And even as a story, it's not that great and is elevated by the artwork.

SiegePerilous02 nailed it. I do give DC of the time kudos for recognizing a downward spiral for what is was, and daring a bold move to correct it. In retrospect, the story is weak, inspiring awe only in the sheer size of its body count. At the time though, no one had ever tried it before, and no one could believe what they were seeing.

[superduperman]

Crisis on Infinite Earths was a mistake, and the biggest mistake DC ever made.

I think part of the problem is that nobody's really sure what the alternative was. They were on the verge of bankruptcy. Some big name characters were on the verge of cancellation. Like WW. I kind of wonder if COIE was the problem or the fact that they just didn't plan out the post-Crisis universe enough prior to it. Everyone should have got a reboot all at once instead of dragging it out over the first five years or so.