Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Agent Z]

There were absolutely appearances where Maxima's libido and awful fanservice sex appeal (or whatever the hell you'd call it) was her driving motivation and she was a bad character, yes. But dig a little deeper, read her quality appearances, and you find a much more interesting thing; a ruthless queen and politician serving her empire. A culture rooted in ambition, lust, and violence. If Thanagar and Tamaran had a feral love child it'd be Almerac. When written well, Maxima is friend and foe simultaneously and can be fun and compelling. She's a space Lannister, except without the incest and not quite so despicable. And yeah when it came time to produce an heir Maxima was more than happy to recruit the handsome and rugged Kryptonian instead of, say, the crass and disgusting Czarnian or the slimy and weird shapeshifting Martian. But the ruling bloodline is carefully cultivated, designed to create the most powerful ruler possible. If Lobo or J'onn looked like a better genetic match, Maxima would've been knocking on their doors instead. And we can't begrudge a woman of duty actually being happy about doing that duty, can we?

Perhaps, you think, we Maxima fans are reading between the lines too much, and seeing in her things that the page doesn't actually support. And I'll concede that there are plenty of things about Almerac and Maxima that are barely footnotes, leaving a lot of things undefined. And there's a ton of plain bad writing layered over a lot of Max's stuff too. But there's gold in that character, man. Game of Thrones meets Star Wars. And Maxima shoots first.

I'll concede there is some potential in Maxima, but it certainly wasn't realized in her original incarnation. It says a lot of how backwards the writing for female villains can get when one in Superman's power tier and an interesting piece of world building is still defined by her obsession with a man.

[bat22]

As someone who liked pre-Flashpoint DC more than post-Flashpoint, I will never understand what people ever saw in the original Maxima. This is a character defined entirely by who she was sleeping with or wanted to sleep with, at a time when that sort of thing was considered outdated. Post-Flashpoint Maxima wasn't my favorite character, but she certainly wasn't written any worse than the original one.

Funny how you elevate the post-Flashpoint Maxima when, in this age of identity politicking, virtue signaling, she is the version whose character is defined by who she wants to sleep with. That version just strikes me as misguided feminism, trying to "correct" a character whose supposed shortcoming was a keen interest in finding Mr. Right and the progeny from their union. In other words, reflecting the interests of countless females with their fertility timelines, to say nothing of her position as warrior royalty. Instead we have a generic story of girl at odds with her family because lesbian. It could have worked with another Almeracian royal, but it was an insult to slap the "Maxima" name tag on her.

I will cede that the Superman creative teams really dropped the ball with classic Max by having her regress back to a Superman chaser opposite Obsession; when her prior moments in the Justice Leage books, and also the alternate future Armageddon 2001 annual, showed that Maxima always had the potential to become a more emotionally centered figure with her own elements of cosmic intrigue and battle.

[Proto Man]

I'll concede there is some potential in Maxima, but it certainly wasn't realized in her original incarnation. It says a lot of how backwards the writing for female villains can get when one in Superman's power tier and an interesting piece of world building is still defined by her obsession with a man.

I mean...
I get that point of view, but let's not kid ourselves about what those stories mainly were. Works of fantasy meant to appeal primarily to a male demographic. And there is nothing wrong with that. I think such things have a right to exist, just like I think works of fantasy meant to appeal primarily to a female demographic have a right to exist. If you have a problem with that--and there is nothing wrong with that not appealing to you--perhaps you are just barking up the wrong tree.

[Agent Z]

Funny how you elevate the post-Flashpoint Maxima when, in this age of identity politicking, virtue signaling, she is the version whose character is defined by who she wants to sleep with.

I am not "elevating" anything. The highest compliment I paid to New 52/Rebirth Maxima was that she wasn't any worse than the original incarnation. On the other hand...

That version just strikes me as misguided feminism, trying to "correct" a character whose supposed shortcoming was a keen interest in finding Mr. Right and the progeny from their union. In other words, reflecting the interests of countless females with their fertility timelines, to say nothing of her position as warrior royalty. Instead we have a generic story of girl at odds with her family because lesbian. It could have worked with another Almeracian royal, but it was an insult to slap the "Maxima" name tag on her.

I don't see how you can defend Maxima's story because it reflects what real life women felt while dismissing the New 52 version as being generic despite it doing the same in a different way. George Perez wrote a story about women whose lives didn't just revolve around finding a man and getting pregnant at around the same time Maxima was created.

[Agent Z]

I mean...
I get that point of view, but let's not kid ourselves about what those stories mainly were. Works of fantasy meant to appeal primarily to a male demographic. And there is nothing wrong with that. I think such things have a right to exist, just like I think works of fantasy meant to appeal primarily to a female demographic have a right to exist. If you have a problem with that--and there is nothing wrong with that not appealing to you--perhaps you are just barking up the wrong tree.

I don't doubt that, but it seems most of Maxima's fans see her different or want her to be different from what she actually was.

[bat22]

I don't see how you can defend Maxima's story because it reflects what real life women felt while dismissing the New 52 version as being generic despite it doing the same in a different way. George Perez wrote a story about women whose lives didn't just revolve around finding a man and getting pregnant at around the same time Maxima was created.

NuMax wasn't doing the same thing in a different way. She was just doing a different thing. Only she'd probably get praised for sticking it to the "patriarchal" concept of original Maxima. While that Max was surely not conceived as a hero and had flaws, I see NuMax as an example of modern-day revisionist and hypocritical feminism, shunning legit female interests/concerns like finding the right male for the right progeny.

And just because George Perez could write females to satisfy the Bechdel Test - a joke of a test, mind you - that doesn't mean he should be restricted from writing females that go against it. A writer/audience should have that variety.

[Proto Man]

I prefer classic Maxima because I like her design better, and her personality more (for this character), and I generally like the comics I read her in vs. the ones I read New 52 Maxima in, which was that short Perkins Supergirl run.

Which version is better is up to preference, but when you change Maxima to the point they did in New 52, it's not surprising that the audience that was drawn to her might not be drawn to her anymore. Her whole shtick is different and even opposed to what fans had come to expect from Maxima. Also, she seemed de-aged and more a contemporary of Supergirl.

[Baseman]

I don't know.I kinda feel that if you have such a problem with the original concept,why use her at all?Was probably better to just retire the character than present such a sanitized version of her.

[Agent Z]

NuMax wasn't doing the same thing in a different way. She was just doing a different thing. Only she'd probably get praised for sticking it to the "patriarchal" concept of original Maxima. While that Max was surely not conceived as a hero and had flaws, I see NuMax as an example of modern-day revisionist and hypocritical feminism, shunning legit female interests/concerns like finding the right male for the right progeny.

So women wanting the right to date or not date as they please isn't a legit female interest? Not every woman is interested in marrying a guy and giving birth to children. Especially in recent decades.

And just because George Perez could write females to satisfy the Bechdel Test - a joke of a test, mind you - that doesn't mean he should be restricted from writing females that go against it. A writer/audience should have that variety.

What variety was the original Maxima offering? Superhero comics were hardly lacking in female villains obsessed with the hero, to say nothing of how she was one of many women DC depicted as being attracted to Superman.

[Proto Man]

What variety was the original Maxima offering? Superhero comics were hardly lacking in female villains obsessed with the hero, to say nothing of how she was one of many women DC depicted as being attracted to Superman.

Well, I'm not sure if this is the sort of answer you're looking for, but she is a potential love interest that can accompany Superman on cosmic adventures. Sure, you can contrive some reason for Lois, Lana, Cat, or whoever to do that, but it probably wouldn't work as comfortably. Plus, she can be antagonistic, and Superman's other love interests weren't typically offering that. On top of that, she's someone close to his power level, and he really doesn't have any other love interest consistently like that aside from Wonder Woman...at least not one that comes to mind. And there are a lot of reasons one might prefer Maxima over Wonder Woman for a Superman love interest.

For Superman, in particular, Maxima actually brings a lot to the table that other characters don't, in my view.

When you make her gay, you basically lose all of that, because she wouldn't be interested in Superman.

[Tzigone]

Well, I'm not sure if this is the sort of answer you're looking for, but she is a potential love interest that can accompany Superman on cosmic adventures.

No. No, no, no. She's a villain and has no regard/respect for his moral values. And even besides that, she was a woman who didn't want to take "no" for an answer from a potential lover (not a good trait in a character of either sex) and because of her absolute obsession with bedding him and bearing his young even before she meets him, she's a horrible love interest to me in that it's just creepy. It's like someone falling in love with their stalker.

Mind you, I don't care for cosmic adventures for Superman, anyway - I like him earth-based.

[bat22]

So women wanting the right to date or not date as they please isn't a legit female interest? Not every woman is interested in marrying a guy and giving birth to children. Especially in recent decades.

Except that the woman who is interested in marrying a guy and giving birth to children is probably what NuMax's creative team took offense with in classic Maxima. Again, the premise behind NuMax probably would have worked with an all-new character than revising Maxima with that "progressive" intent.

What variety was the original Maxima offering? Superhero comics were hardly lacking in female villains obsessed with the hero, to say nothing of how she was one of many women DC depicted as being attracted to Superman.

A character as old as Superman is going to accumulate a number of love interests, although one as relatively young as Maxima still stood out with her looks, powers, background, and moral alignment (her appearances in multiple media are testament to that). She had also broken away from her Superman fixation until Supes' creative team regressed her.

[Alan2099]

No. No, no, no. She's a villain and has no regard/respect for his moral values. And even besides that, she was a woman who didn't want to take "no" for an answer from a potential lover (not a good trait in a character of either sex) and because of her absolute obsession with bedding him and bearing his young even before she meets him, she's a horrible love interest to me in that it's just creepy. It's like someone falling in love with their stalker.

Mind you, I don't care for cosmic adventures for Superman, anyway - I like him earth-based.

Why shouldn't good guys sometimes have some bad qualities?

That fact that she isn't a good person and comes off as a stalker at times makes for some interesting character interactions. Superman tends to see the good in people, so having him work with somebody that's, let's say, less good gives his character an additional challenge to work with.

[Ascended]

I don't doubt that, but it seems most of Maxima's fans see her different or want her to be different from what she actually was.

More that we saw her for what she was meant to be, when DC itself often didn't. Again, there's plenty of good stories with her where you get to see some depth, and her time in the League (several versions actually) also provided a lot of character development.

Then, as others said, the Super office pulled her back to make her part of a new Superman Revenge Squad. It didn't make sense and it was terrible regression but the Super writer needed a chick in the group so whether it made sense, or was even good, didn't matter. And we didn't see much of her after that until Our Worlds at War, where she was back to being the badass queen...and then died, so we didn't get her again until the New52, which was Max in name only.

As far as the New52 version goes, nothing about that character was Maxima. I thought the character was fine, but it wasn't Max.

But I always thought NuMax had a lot of potential as the daughter of the original. I think such a dynamic would work nicely with what we know of Almerac culture, and it'd have added some fascinating context to Maxima. This could have been the keystone of an extended family and opened the door to explore the political and social tides of Almerac, fleshing out that corner of the Superverse, to the betterment of Clark, Maxima, and the DCU at large. And NuMax being a lesbian offered a lot of fun wrinkles when compared to what we know of Almeraci culture and Maxima's own opinions.

[Vordan]

I prefer NuMax as Maxima’s younger sister myself, and “Maxima” should just be the title for the ruler of Almerac.