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  1. #1651
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    As someone who gets exhausted with all the DCEU bashing here and everywhere else, I think I can relate to what docmidnite is saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    That would be fine if he learned from it. The acclaim from putting Dick back into Nightwing and bringing Wally back was his customers saying "yes, more of this" and he listened before going back to his usual practices. He genuinely keeps trying the same thing over and thinking he's going to get different results. It isn't just that he thinks he's making the best business decision. He's not really capable of learning from when they go wrong.



    All of this is deflecting and not in any way refuting his points. Stick to the topic. In what manner does devaluing an IP that's often just behind Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman (if not edging one of them out due to being attached to Batman, their sacred cow) in their iconography and adaption into other more profitable media make any sense to anyone with a modicum of business acumen? It's like Coke advertising that you should enjoy Coke but go to Pepsi co for your lemon lime needs because who even wants to drink Sprite. It's goddamn stupid, but someone at the top of the food chain gets to mess with the formula to Sprite all he wants and gets away with it because every now and then he lets someone with a good idea fix it before said executive thinks he's got the magic ingredient and adds turpentine to the mix.

    Except it's not Sprite, it's Dick Grayson, the other side of Batman and Robin.

    It doesn't matter if you or Didio like his name or if the market is itself shrinking, those are other discussions. How does Didio trying to kill off or ruin popular IP that resonate with his customers make sense? The only argument I can think of is he's trying to strengthen the core brand and have them starved for content so they'll flock to Batman or Flash, but that ignores that these comics aren't sold in a vacuum. If DC stops providing a Nightwing product fans want, why not go to another athletic, quipy hero but who gets better creative teams-- Spider-Man? Or maybe a neat indie book? Or maybe Nightwing reprints which give a fan what they want one time and then they never buy another of your serialized books? This sort of thing is attacking a large portion of their fanbase while their competition is already beating them.

    I don't have Ascended's acumen for business, but I have worked in sales and I do know that alienating your core audience is not a wise decision just for hope of expansion. You need to keep them in consideration to provide you revenue while you develop new opportunities and you want their word of mouth and longevity as satisfied customers to provide security for prospective customers. Or that's what I've gleaned from my own experiences.
    According to Didio himself, that's exactly what new fans do.

  2. #1652
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    I'm confused.
    Dick and Wally aren't the first characters who are mistreated by DC.
    So where have all those people been back then who now claim that they are mad at DC because it's bad business and not because their favorite characters are targeted?

  3. #1653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I'm confused.
    Dick and Wally aren't the first characters who are mistreated by DC.
    So where have all those people been back then who now claim that they are mad at DC because it's bad business and not because their favorite characters are targeted?
    A. These are two that the EIC has personally claimed he dislikes or wants removed, if Didio came out tommorow and said "Fuck Hawkman" with endless books about him getting shat on then yeah, people would be pissed off.

    2. Flash is hideously popular and for years Wally WAS the Flash. Similarly Dick is the 4th Pillar of DC (Harley is the 5th). Of you say Robin people immediately think "Dick Grayson". These are two big characters that revenue is being thrown away on. Meanwhile Didio pushes Sideways whom falls flat.

  4. #1654
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    A. These are two that the EIC has personally claimed he dislikes or wants removed, if Didio came out tommorow and said "Fuck Hawkman" with endless books about him getting shat on then yeah, people would be pissed off.

    2. Flash is hideously popular and for years Wally WAS the Flash. Similarly Dick is the 4th Pillar of DC (Harley is the 5th). Of you say Robin people immediately think "Dick Grayson". These are two big characters that revenue is being thrown away on. Meanwhile Didio pushes Sideways whom falls flat.
    yea two of DC's biggest and iconic characters getting crapped on has more fans mad than less popular characters... you dont say.

  5. #1655
    Fantastic Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    I’m going to repeat this one last time and then I’m done with this thread.

    DC management is under no obligation to either like those characters or cater to the fans of those characters (or any characters for that matter) no matter how popular those characters may be.

    Like I said before, all that a comic book company is supposed to do is simply offer a selection of titles they hope may entertain people. THAT’S IT.


    We don’t have to like or agree with their choices and likewise they are under no obligation to agree with us and like what we like and cater to fans desires in any way either.

    At least DC management aren’t calling their disgruntled fans names like 90’s DC management did when they were calling all of their disgruntled fans W.E.T..R.A.T.S. (which was an acronym they came up with for disgruntled fans that stood for WANTS EVERYTHING TO REMAIN ALWAYS THE SAME)
    Last edited by docmidnite; 01-18-2020 at 08:18 AM.

  6. #1656
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I'm confused.
    Dick and Wally aren't the first characters who are mistreated by DC.
    So where have all those people been back then who now claim that they are mad at DC because it's bad business and not because their favorite characters are targeted?
    Fans are naturally more vocal when it's their favorite characters who they perceive as being mistreated.

    They weren't there back then because they didn't care as much. Nobody is going to expend the energy to defend characters or criticize DC in a situation they are apathetic about.

  7. #1657
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I'm confused.
    Dick and Wally aren't the first characters who are mistreated by DC.
    So where have all those people been back then who now claim that they are mad at DC because it's bad business and not because their favorite characters are targeted?
    Comic forums are dominated by longtime fans of the 1980s to early 2000s, or just prior to the rise of Didio to editorial power in 2003.

    Didio removed, downplayed or reconfigured almost every signature 1990s DC element or character, similar to what Kahn, Giordano and Levitz did the pre-Crisis DCU before him. People have been screaming for him to be fired ever since Identity Crisis in 2004. Here we are, 16 years later - same thing.

    And since most of the 1990s characters became peripheral characters under his watch, they are vulnerable to all the risks that come with being less important, offstage, or #2 or #3 on the depth chart. Most notably beloved characters like Nightwing and Wally West. They are no longer protected from "Hey, let's have them mutilated and tortured. Or killed off!" It's the same thing as the 90s were to the 80s, but Didio turned the wheel forward to the next era.

  8. #1658
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I'm confused.
    Dick and Wally aren't the first characters who are mistreated by DC.
    So where have all those people been back then who now claim that they are mad at DC because it's bad business and not because their favorite characters are targeted?
    Well, I only started paying attention to the business end of comics about five, six years ago. Before then I just focused on the quality of the product and not anything that went into creating it. And there's a difference between the company screwing up "honestly" and screwing up because they've allowed a personal bias to influence them.

    Like, Hawkman has been a pure hot mess for decades right? But as far as I know, no one important at DC has ever expressed an active dislike of the character or a desire to see him fail. I've seen creators express frustration with the situation/s the character is in, and talk about how hard it is to work with Hawkman because he's a hot mess, but I've never seen a upper level member of management express a passionate dislike of the character itself, nor have I seen Hawkman be treated in such a way that seemed intentionally counter intuitive to revenue generation. All I've seen is DC struggle to fix a character that was broken before any of the current management were around. If managers have talked about how much they hate Hawkman (or whoever) I haven't seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    DC management is under no obligation to either like those characters or cater to the fans of those characters (or any characters for that matter) no matter how popular those characters may be.
    And that is factually incorrect. That's not how business works. Open up a business and ignore what your customer base wants, then see how long it takes you to file for bankruptcy. A business that ignores what it's customers want (especially when it doesn't find replacement consumers!) is a business that won't be around long. But it seems you don't actually have a background in this sort of thing and can't give me the "business practice/theory X" that absolves Didio of my concerns, so there's nothing more to add here anyway.

    And again, I'm not hating on Didio or bitching about the treatment of personal favorites. Yeah, Dick is a personal favorite, but my sticking point is the business, not the character. This isn't about creative choices I don't like, this is about harmful business that is costing actual money. It's not "WETRATS" or any other stupid bullsh*t like that, it's business and the possibility that one of DC's most important employees is f**king the company out of revenue because of *his* fandom. This isn't my fandom put in question, it's his.
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  9. #1659
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    I like Dick Grayson, he's a great and important character. But his fanbase is way too sensitive and often, way too entitled. Under Didio the character was Batman for a while, and he had Spiral. And they still get their blood pressure up because he ALMOST died in Infinite Crisis. And that didn't even happen. So he has a bit of a lackluster amnesia arc going on.
    Every character sometimes has bad stories or directions that don't meet their potential. Now fans of the rest of the Titans like Wally or Roy? Their frustrations seem more understandable to me.
    Anyway ironically the best thing Grayson had going for him as character is that writers were willing to take risks, to make him give up Robin, become Batman, become a spy. Etc. So this one probably didn't work. Sounds like it's more the result of different creators having different plans behind the scenes than a malicious attempt to sabatoge the character.
    Hell, I don't like Heroes in Crisis, but I'm not convinced it was done to sabatoge the character of Wally West. It was written by Tom King, the guy puts everyone through the wringer.
    But I generally agree with DocMidnite. Or at least appreciate the point he's making. There's way more to running a comics company than just fanservice.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 01-18-2020 at 03:20 PM.

  10. #1660
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    There absolutely is more to it than fanservice. What I've been explaining (several times) is that this doesn't add up from the business end. It's not just a bad story or direction, creative missteps like that happen, it's no big deal, and every character at DC who has been around for more than six issues has had a bad story. This isn't a creative problem, it's a business concern.

    Let me frame it another way. Let's say your accountant did something that goes against GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices) and it cost you your return. Now you're not getting your money this tax season. You have lost money. Now let's say you have reason to believe your accountant did this on purpose, because there's really no other reason you can find that explains why he would go against GAAP, and he's told you that he straight up hates your guts.

    Does that sound okay to you? Is that just "business as usual?" Would you feel comfortable letting the same guy do your taxes next year? Or would you demand an explanation of why he went against GAAP and you lost your return? Maybe, when you find answers, you learn that your accountant did indeed do his best and didn't screw you over on purpose. Or maybe you learn that he did this intentionally. Either way, wouldn't you like to know?

    In any case, this discussion has dominated the thread for the last couple pages and I haven't found anyone who can provide that business practice/theory X I'm looking for. So I'm gonna bow out of the discussion so we can all move on to complaining about other things.
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  11. #1661
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    I'm confused.
    Dick and Wally aren't the first characters who are mistreated by DC.
    So where have all those people been back then who now claim that they are mad at DC because it's bad business and not because their favorite characters are targeted?
    Hal Jordan fans got pretty upset at the time. Definitely 'bad business' to get rid of Hal and the corps... because they didn't just screw up one book... they screwed up/canceled FOUR books that I read quite regularly. Whatever bump they got from Kyle, I can't believe it offset FOUR books.

  12. #1662
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    I’m going to repeat this one last time and then I’m done with this thread.

    DC management is under no obligation to either like those characters or cater to the fans of those characters (or any characters for that matter) no matter how popular those characters may be.

    Like I said before, all that a comic book company is supposed to do is simply offer a selection of titles they hope may entertain people. THAT’S IT.


    We don’t have to like or agree with their choices and likewise they are under no obligation to agree with us and like what we like and cater to fans desires in any way either.

    At least DC management aren’t calling their disgruntled fans names like 90’s DC management did when they were calling all of their disgruntled fans W.E.T..R.A.T.S. (which was an acronym they came up with for disgruntled fans that stood for WANTS EVERYTHING TO REMAIN ALWAYS THE SAME)
    Imagine being a buisness (your sole objective is to make money) and then ignoring your popular items.

    Their objective is TO MAKE MONEY this way is NOT MAKING MONEY and HURTING THEM. We've repeated this to you sevrral times but your under some bizarre assumption the Comic book buisness is just about dropping books of any quality down and letting them exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Hell, I don't like Heroes in Crisis, but I'm not convinced it was done to sabatoge the character of Wally West. It was written by Tom King, the guy puts everyone through the wringer.
    But I generally agree with DocMidnite. Or at least appreciate the point he's making. There's way more to running a comics company than just fanservice.
    Except its not Tom King, or not as much as you think. In these big events the deaths are informed by the EIC. King was given a letter/note/order that "X Characters" were to be killed off. Now you can occasionally fudge it, but the overall chouce is down to the EIC.
    Last edited by jetengine; 01-18-2020 at 04:05 PM.

  13. #1663
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I like Dick Grayson, he's a great and important character. But his fanbase is way too sensitive and often, way too entitled. Under Didio the character was Batman for a while, and he had Spiral. And they still get their blood pressure up because he ALMOST died in Infinite Crisis. And that didn't even happen. So he has a bit of a lackluster amnesia arc going on.
    Every character sometimes has bad stories or directions that don't meet their potential. Now fans of the rest of the Titans like Wally or Roy? Their frustrations seem more understandable to me.
    Anyway ironically the best thing Grayson had going for him as character is that writers were willing to take risks, to make him give up Robin, become Batman, become a spy. Etc. So this one probably didn't work. Sounds like it's more the result of different creators having different plans behind the scenes than a malicious attempt to sabatoge the character.
    Hell, I don't like Heroes in Crisis, but I'm not convinced it was done to sabatoge the character of Wally West. It was written by Tom King, the guy puts everyone through the wringer.
    But I generally agree with DocMidnite. Or at least appreciate the point he's making. There's way more to running a comics company than just fanservice.
    Fans who are upset about Dick's treatment are usually also upset by the treatment of Roy and (especially) Wally. There is a lot of overlap.

    Yeah under DiDio's reign Dick got Batman and Spyral. Spyral was also cut short under the same reign and one of the authors was forced to write him back into Bludhaven as Nightwing despite being blatantly uninterested and it's been downhill ever since.

    This isn't a little bit of an amnesia arc going on. This is a dumbass status quo that has been going on way too long because management doesn't give a shit and have been pretty upfront about that.

  14. #1664
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    There absolutely is more to it than fanservice. What I've been explaining (several times) is that this doesn't add up from the business end. It's not just a bad story or direction, creative missteps like that happen, it's no big deal, and every character at DC who has been around for more than six issues has had a bad story. This isn't a creative problem, it's a business concern.

    Let me frame it another way. Let's say your accountant did something that goes against GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices) and it cost you your return. Now you're not getting your money this tax season. You have lost money. Now let's say you have reason to believe your accountant did this on purpose, because there's really no other reason you can find that explains why he would go against GAAP, and he's told you that he straight up hates your guts.

    Does that sound okay to you? Is that just "business as usual?" Would you feel comfortable letting the same guy do your taxes next year? Or would you demand an explanation of why he went against GAAP and you lost your return? Maybe, when you find answers, you learn that your accountant did indeed do his best and didn't screw you over on purpose. Or maybe you learn that he did this intentionally. Either way, wouldn't you like to know?

    In any case, this discussion has dominated the thread for the last couple pages and I haven't found anyone who can provide that business practice/theory X I'm looking for. So I'm gonna bow out of the discussion so we can all move on to complaining about other things.
    A book you like just had an unpopular direction that tanked sales. You're trying to make it sound bigger than that, but it's really not. Hell if you looked at Nightwing sales, at first it took a while for the Ric thing to have an affect. Now it has, and surprise surprise, Tynion said it's going away. I'm not seeing the reckless buisiness practices from that. If sales went down faster, it would have gone away faster.

  15. #1665
    Fantastic Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    made a mistake
    Last edited by docmidnite; 01-18-2020 at 05:34 PM.

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