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  1. #961
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    You're not wrong, but I think a lot of that comes down to public profile and the weight of history more than any reasoning in-story. Lots of heroes are just as powerful, if not more so, than the core 7. Firestorm, Zatanna, Fate, etc etc, can go toe-to-toe with Clark and J'onn and Diana and Hal. But the big names are the Big Names, and they're the ones we're always going to associate with the team.

    Everyone else....they can be viable, valuable members but no matter how awesome and useful they are, they're going to be the new/secondary faces.

    But hey, once upon a time Zee and Hawkman were new faces to the League, and these days they're almost always mentioned in "who should be on the team?" discussions. They're not the Big 7 but they're still seen as important Leaguers. Vic, Jeff and the rest could be seen the same way with a little time and effort.
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  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I actually think it might be in DC's best interests to avoid any kind of racial undertones with a John Stewart film.

    Black Panther already tackled some of these issues and did it beautifully. John could do the same, using aliens as allegory and everything, just like you said (I'd suggest Mosaic for inspiration) but even if a John GL film did that well.....we've seen it already with Wakanda. I think BP and Wonder Woman were huge moments for pop culture and, if I can be pretentious, society. But those moments happened and no one will be done any favors by WB/DC trying to recapture that lightning in a bottle.

    So I'd like to see a John movie that doesn't delve into racial social issues or politics.....but was just a fun, badass movie with a fun, badass character who happens to be a black man. I think a movie featuring a PoC that doesn't deal with race would be as novel now as BP and Wonder Woman were for having PoC and female leads and tackling some of the issues they deal with.

    Of course, John *could* tackle these issues and do it well and we'd all enjoy it. But I don't think it *has* to be done. Just because your lead is a PoC or woman doesn't mean it has to be a commentary, it can just be a great story.
    I'm glad someone else agrees with this and it's probably a controversial opinion. I'm black myself and while I get the reasoning behind social commentary not every black character needs a social critique on life. That was one the best things about into the spiderman. A black/Latino character having cool super powers with a cool message like anyone can be heroes. Both parents alive, the dad being there with a respectable background as an officer. Definitely would like more of those.

    While I liked the black lightning show I'm starting to feel like it's getting so heavy handed with its social message, but I get why and don't have a problem with it. But I want them to have bigger grand adventures, like meeting gods and exploring multiverse seems.

  3. #963
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    I'm glad someone else agrees with this and it's probably a controversial opinion. I'm black myself and while I get the reasoning behind social commentary not every black character needs a social critique on life. That was one the best things about into the spiderman. A black/Latino character having cool super powers with a cool message like anyone can be heroes. Both parents alive, the dad being there with a respectable background as an officer. Definitely would like more of those.

    While I liked the black lightning show I'm starting to feel like it's getting so heavy handed with its social message, but I get why and don't have a problem with it. But I want them to have bigger grand adventures, like meeting gods and exploring multiverse seems.
    Well, the show is supposed to be part of the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover, so you'll be getting that wish.

  4. #964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You're not wrong, but I think a lot of that comes down to public profile and the weight of history more than any reasoning in-story. Lots of heroes are just as powerful, if not more so, than the core 7. Firestorm, Zatanna, Fate, etc etc, can go toe-to-toe with Clark and J'onn and Diana and Hal. But the big names are the Big Names, and they're the ones we're always going to associate with the team.
    But charcters like Firestorm, Zatanna and Fate are at least powerful enough (and their powers are different enough from the big 6) that you can put them side by side with the big guys.
    Others like Green Arrow, Hawkmen, Atom or Red Tornado have enough history that you could put them on the team.

    But Black Lightning, Vixen and Cyborg (before they added the Motherbox to his powers) don't really have neither imo.

  5. #965
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    In a John Stewart GL movie I'd like ONE comment on race.

    *John relates a story to his friend about being at an alien bar and getting attacked*
    "Oh man, looks like space racisms a thing"
    "He hit me cause I'm humanoid, not because I'm black"

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've never really felt like the reincarnation angle prevented Kendra from being every bit Carter's equal, at least in what I've read.
    Not the point that I was making. Hawkgirl/woman has always been treated more equally than other female partners, and from Shayera on, especially so. I stated that I prefer Shayera over the others because of the lack of agency the endless reincarnation angle imposes on the Hawks (both of them).

  7. #967
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Not the point that I was making. Hawkgirl/woman has always been treated more equally than other female partners, and from Shayera on, especially so. I stated that I prefer Shayera over the others because of the lack of agency the endless reincarnation angle imposes on the Hawks (both of them).
    And I don't feel it necessarily imposes a lack of agency, even when they're romantically paired together, as in the case of Kendra.

  8. #968
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    I never cared much for Black Panther because I'm usually not into social commentary stories with Black characters in a superhero setting, and I'm not terribly interested in Africa, to tell you the truth. Well, at least not sub-Saharan Africa. I can't think of anything from the culture, history, or mythology that really hooked me, except for maybe the British fighting Zulus, but...that's kind of more from the British perspective, so... :T

    I'm not interested in Luke Cage for similar reasons. I'm not all that into his Black neighborhood story or prison background. Maybe this stuff doesn't appeal to me because a lot of it is somehow rooted in something negative. There is at least a shadow of it. In Black Panther, as was mentioned, there is white supremacy and colonialism. In Luke Cage, there is the ghetto and black people's struggles with the American justice system. Black Lightning isn't a whole lot different. Milestone books typically weren't any better, from my point of view, and I thought this was disappointing because they were done largely by black creators. With the white guys, I understood the situation better. They didn't often have much use for black characters unless they were going to make a point about their blackness, but Milestone was treading pretty much the same ground, even though Milestone's fans love to deny this from my experience. For example, the first issue of Hardware, which was a debut title for them, is literally titled "Angry Black Man", and the first superhero team they had is a street gang.

    I simply don't find this type of stuff to be escapism or very appealing. It's often based in sad aspects of reality. I don't mean to say that it shouldn't have been made, or the stories have no merit, or that good stories can't be told in that setting. I guess for some people, their escapism is seeing a black man turn all that oppression and whatnot on its head. For me...I guess I would rather see a cool portal fantasy or something. Like... you would NEVER see a black lead in something like a Final Fantasy game. Instead, you would see black characters in...Blood Syndicate, Black Lightning, Luke Cage, et al. If it's about sports, gangs, crime, prison, slaves, or rap you'll see some black people, but I'm the guy who would have more fun seeing a black lead in a Final Fantasy game, which you would NEVER see.

    John Stewart was/is a breath of fresh air, because here was a black superhero who wasn't involved in all of that stuff (well, he was, but not so much in the depiction of him I discovered). I would be a bit disappointed if he did get a film and it was the same old commentary all over again. One of the things I really appreciated about him was you could simply have a good time with him without HISTORY CRASHING THROUGH YOUR VEINS:

  9. #969
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    I'm glad someone else agrees with this and it's probably a controversial opinion. I'm black myself and while I get the reasoning behind social commentary not every black character needs a social critique on life. That was one the best things about into the spiderman. A black/Latino character having cool super powers with a cool message like anyone can be heroes. Both parents alive, the dad being there with a respectable background as an officer. Definitely would like more of those.
    Thanks! I mean, there's a time and place for social commentary, and these are conversations we should be having as a society, but I definitely feel like the majority of PoC and female characters deal with it so much that a story where they *dont* stands out. You mentioned Into the Spider-verse, and I love that movie in part for this reason. There's like, zero attention put on the fact that Miles is black/Latino. He's just a kid thrown into the crazy world of superheroes. And I really appreciated that the film didn't try to have some sort of conversation about anything other than a kid's coming of age story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But charcters like Firestorm, Zatanna and Fate are at least powerful enough (and their powers are different enough from the big 6) that you can put them side by side with the big guys.
    Others like Green Arrow, Hawkmen, Atom or Red Tornado have enough history that you could put them on the team.

    But Black Lightning, Vixen and Cyborg (before they added the Motherbox to his powers) don't really have neither imo.
    I dunno man. Arrow has had decades of solo material, but the Hawks and (especially) Atoms have always struggled with ongoings and are usually seen as part of a team. And Red has never been a solo act, ever. I think Jeff, Vic, Vixen, etc, aren't so far off from those guys. They all have decades of history behind them, stories that have focused on them and expanded their worlds, etc. When Atom joined the League, was he really in such a better position than these other guys?

    I think the power levels are a bigger problem, but far from one that is hard to get past. Aquaman is far less powerful than Clark, and so is Bruce (well, before the Batgod gave him plot device powers anyway). They always found something worthwhile to do. Jeff might not be taking down Wonder Woman in a fight but it's not like he's useless. And if anyone ever spent ten minutes with Google they'd find out that Vixen could potentially be one of the most dangerous people on earth. There's some crazy animals out there, but Vixen looks weak because lazy writers are just like "Meh, gorilla! Elephant!"

    And.....as much as we talk about what the League is and what they represent and all.....Gnort was a member. I feel like if he can get in, anyone should be fair game.
    Last edited by Ascended; 08-19-2019 at 05:29 PM.
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  10. #970
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    So, is it controversial to say that the reboots, such as with Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint, were ultimately uneeded, and that the DCU should have adopted something more along the lines of Marvel's Sliding Timescale?

  11. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I never cared much for Black Panther because I'm usually not into social commentary stories with Black characters in a superhero setting, and I'm not terribly interested in Africa, to tell you the truth. Well, at least not sub-Saharan Africa. I can't think of anything from the culture, history, or mythology that really hooked me, except for maybe the British fighting Zulus, but...that's kind of more from the British perspective, so... :T

    I'm not interested in Luke Cage for similar reasons. I'm not all that into his Black neighborhood story or prison background. Maybe this stuff doesn't appeal to me because a lot of it is somehow rooted in something negative. There is at least a shadow of it. In Black Panther, as was mentioned, there is white supremacy and colonialism. In Luke Cage, there is the ghetto and black people's struggles with the American justice system. Black Lightning isn't a whole lot different. Milestone books typically weren't any better, from my point of view, and I thought this was disappointing because they were done largely by black creators. With the white guys, I understood the situation better. They didn't often have much use for black characters unless they were going to make a point about their blackness, but Milestone was treading pretty much the same ground, even though Milestone's fans love to deny this from my experience. For example, the first issue of Hardware, which was a debut title for them, is literally titled "Angry Black Man", and the first superhero team they had is a street gang.

    I simply don't find this type of stuff to be escapism or very appealing. It's often based in sad aspects of reality. I don't mean to say that it shouldn't have been made, or the stories have no merit, or that good stories can't be told in that setting. I guess for some people, their escapism is seeing a black man turn all that oppression and whatnot on its head. For me...I guess I would rather see a cool portal fantasy or something. Like... you would NEVER see a black lead in something like a Final Fantasy game. Instead, you would see black characters in...Blood Syndicate, Black Lightning, Luke Cage, et al. If it's about sports, gangs, crime, prison, slaves, or rap you'll see some black people, but I'm the guy who would have more fun seeing a black lead in a Final Fantasy game, which you would NEVER see.

    John Stewart was/is a breath of fresh air, because here was a black superhero who wasn't involved in all of that stuff (well, he was, but not so much in the depiction of him I discovered). I would be a bit disappointed if he did get a film and it was the same old commentary all over again. One of the things I really appreciated about him was you could simply have a good time with him without HISTORY CRASHING THROUGH YOUR VEINS:
    I agree with you on the black leads in a final fantasy like story (my bias aside of that being my favorite video game franchise) and escapism or appealing to everyone, but I have to disagree with you in the context of milestone.

    Considering the location and issues of where some characters lived they had to tackle those issues. Virgil grew up in a bad neighborhood, and rocket had to deal with pregnancy at a young age where she ultimately decided to keep the baby. That can be empowering because some black people can relate. And to be fair Icon was a Republican. For characters like blade their story is different in that vampires is the main issue. Same with Miles Morales whose issue carrying on the huge name of spiderman when he died, and not about him growing in a bad neighborhood, which a good portion of black people didn't grow up in.

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    So, is it controversial to say that the reboots, such as with Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint, were ultimately uneeded, and that the DCU should have adopted something more along the lines of Marvel's Sliding Timescale?
    For peeps that adore legacy? Yes.
    For peeps that get that this became a brand-driven medium in 1956? No.

  13. #973
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    I don't think it's controversial to say that reboots have been unsuccessful and maybe weren't needed in the first place.
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  14. #974
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shockingjustice View Post
    I agree with you on the black leads in a final fantasy like story (my bias aside of that being my favorite video game franchise) and escapism or appealing to everyone, but I have to disagree with you in the context of milestone.

    Considering the location and issues of where some characters lived they had to tackle those issues. Virgil grew up in a bad neighborhood, and rocket had to deal with pregnancy at a young age where she ultimately decided to keep the baby. That can be empowering because some black people can relate. And to be fair Icon was a Republican. For characters like blade their story is different in that vampires is the main issue. Same with Miles Morales whose issue carrying on the huge name of spiderman when he died, and not about him growing in a bad neighborhood, which a good portion of black people didn't grow up in.
    Hell yeah. Milestone was.....man, if you weren't reading comics back then you don't even know. When it first started it was a big damn deal. What was happening in the country, in the industry, all of it. Those social conversations.....Milestone *was* the time and place for those (as far as comics are concerned anyway). Milestone showed us that you could have PoC characters, entire books populated with nothing but PoC characters, and it could still be quality, it could still be entertaining, and it could be real and intelligent and find more than a niche audience too. Those books were socially way ahead of their time (which is part of why they eventually folded, I think), and the social commentary that many of them went into? Totally had to happen; those issues *needed* to be addressed by that imprint at that time.

    I think so, anyway. YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    So, is it controversial to say that the reboots, such as with Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint, were ultimately uneeded, and that the DCU should have adopted something more along the lines of Marvel's Sliding Timescale?
    I dont think it's the majority opinion, since so many fans (at least here) are often quick to say "just retcon/reboot the whole mess away" but I dont think its a controversial opinion. If so, screw 'em because I'm anti-reboot on principal.
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  15. #975
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    So, is it controversial to say that the reboots, such as with Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint, were ultimately uneeded, and that the DCU should have adopted something more along the lines of Marvel's Sliding Timescale?
    I dont think it's the majority opinion, since so many fans (at least here) are often quick to say "just retcon/reboot the whole mess away" but I dont think its a controversial opinion. If so, screw 'em because I'm anti-reboot on principal.
    I think the reboots were an innovative way to shake up story but it's lost the novelty and is only diminishing returns at this point. My controversial take, they should go to a sliding-timeline but also starting aging heroes out of the main universe into "elseworld" multiverse stories. When a character dies or retires in the main universe they are no long usable in that universe and you can tell whatever era story you wanna tell in other earth with them. They'd have to make it like a hardcore official mandate to enforce it but i think that's the best way to balance the different sensibilities between generations of fans.
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