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  1. #2161
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Young Justice: Outsiders did Wally West dirty.

    They bench him for most of season 2, give him a handicap compared the other Flashes that ended up getting him killed (when it was a point of character development for him in the comics), and save all the character development, legacy status, and story focus for the two practical OC's of the show (Kaldur and Artemis).
    Related to Young Justice, but I thought the time skip jump in between seasons 1 and 2 was a rather cheap way to get artificial character development

  2. #2162
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I will give YJ a lot of credit for at least having Wally exist, making him likable and having his bromance with Dick on full display (compared to what was going on in the comics at the time and lately, that's a step up). I prefer YJ Wall-as-Kid Flash to the NTT one.

    But yeah, killing him off did him dirty.
    Yeah, the reason it took me a while to realize this myself is the show's take on Wally seems to get him as a character in terms of personality, confidence, and his role in the DCU...and then they kill him off before they can really capitalize on all the major stuff that's supposed to happen to him.

    And now we're supposed to assume he's never coming back because Greg Weisman just doesn't do that kind of thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Related to Young Justice, but I thought the time skip jump in between seasons 1 and 2 was a rather cheap way to get artificial character development
    The time skips have their benefits, but they also cause their fare share of problems.

  3. #2163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Related to Young Justice, but I thought the time skip jump in between seasons 1 and 2 was a rather cheap way to get artificial character development
    Yeah, the reason it took me a while to realize this myself is the show's take on Wally seems to get him as a character in terms of personality, confidence, and his role in the DCU...and then they kill him off before they can really capitalize on all the major stuff that's supposed to happen to him.

    And now we're supposed to assume he's never coming back because Greg Weisman just doesn't do that kind of thing.

    The time skips have their benefits, but they also cause their fare share of problems.
    I've liked all of the seasons of YJ, but with a definite favor toward the older over the newer. I didn't mind the time skips, but I really would have liked more stories of proteges-in-training crew from season one.

    As for Wally, we probably need to be grateful they didn't have him murder anybody before heaving him over the side.

  4. #2164
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Some of the time skips do lead toms awkward exposition heavy dialogue between the characters to get us up to speed.
    In episode 3 of season 2, we get the revelation that Tula died during the time skip and that's the reason for Kaldur's "betrayal" through an awkward exchange between him and Nightwing.

  5. #2165
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    I do think that the season 2 timeskip did rob us of a lot of good character growth. However, I understand that the producers probably knew that they could get canceled any minute and they wanted to squeeze in all the cool shit, like Dick as Nightwing, while they had the time.

  6. #2166
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    The fact that people don't understand that Cyborg, the most relevant character of the current age of neuralinks and near trasnhumanism, is 100% Justice League material, is quite sad.

  7. #2167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valentonis View Post
    I do think that the season 2 timeskip did rob us of a lot of good character growth. However, I understand that the producers probably knew that they could get canceled any minute and they wanted to squeeze in all the cool shit, like Dick as Nightwing, while they had the time.
    Agreed. Am I correct that this was also timeframe in which both Bart Allen and Jamie Reyes were in publication? I can see how the producers were more interested in making sure those characters got to the screen.

  8. #2168
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    The fact that people don't understand that Cyborg, the most relevant character of the current age of neuralinks and near trasnhumanism, is 100% Justice League material, is quite sad.
    I blame DC comics editorial for that. They insist on writing Cyborg as a jobber who always questions his humanity. Despite his cybernetics, Cyborg is a man and the man vs machine narrative needs to go.

    There's a reason why the most popular versions of Cyborg aren't excessively angsty.

  9. #2169
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I blame DC comics editorial for that. They insist on writing Cyborg as a jobber who always questions his humanity. Despite his cybernetics, Cyborg is a man and the man vs machine narrative needs to go.

    There's a reason why the most popular versions of Cyborg aren't excessively angsty.
    They should focus on the man AND the machine instead. His pretty damn bland design with a stupid "iconic" half metal face should be totally revisited as well. I think that's a controversial opinion too

  10. #2170
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    The fact that people don't understand that Cyborg, the most relevant character of the current age of neuralinks and near trasnhumanism, is 100% Justice League material, is quite sad.
    I blame DC comics editorial for that. They insist on writing Cyborg as a jobber who always questions his humanity. Despite his cybernetics, Cyborg is a man and the man vs machine narrative needs to go.

    There's a reason why the most popular versions of Cyborg aren't excessively angsty.
    They should focus on the man AND the machine instead. His pretty damn bland design with a stupid "iconic" half metal face should be totally revisited as well. I think that's a controversial opinion too
    I loved Cyborg in TNTT 40 years ago. Honestly, I think DC missed his window nearly 30 years ago, when the NTT were losing steam. A better Man Of Tomorrow character for these times is probably Mr. Terrific. We need not consign Cyborg to the junkheap, I do not even say there's no path to the A-List for him, but I think his road would be harder than MT's.

  11. #2171
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Mr. Terrific is perhaps better positioned to make the A-list than Vic; he's got a logo, a established design, and he avoids many of the problems Vic has with the "emasculated black man" stuff, but I don't think he represents the "man of tomorrow" archetype better.

    I love Terrific, he's a great character and it seems like he's constantly moving up my list of favorites. But in the end he's just another smart dude who uses technology, little different from Mr. Fantastic, Batman, Iron Man, and a host of other characters who all basically do the same thing Holt does. There's not much you can't do with Holt, and The Terrifics show just how versatile his character is. But he doesn't really offer anything a dozen other more popular characters don't. Now, don't get me wrong, I support Holt and I want to see him be a big deal, I want his logo on t-shirts, I want, I dunno, little plushy t-spheres I can buy for my kids, I want cartoons and solo comics and I want Holt to be a big deal.

    But Vic is something else. Vic *is* technology, and represents the fusion of man and machine that we're seeing in the world. From pace makers to prosthetic limbs to the brain implants people are starting to experiment with, Vic speaks to all of this in a way Holt simply doesn't. Hell, just people being stuck on their phones all day speaks to Vic and the man-machine fusion more than anyone else. And if DC treated Vic the way the larger media adaptations do, he'd already be considered A-list.

    If DC could pull their heads out of their asses and stop cycling Vic through his "woe is me I'm a freak" attitude, Cyborg could easily and quickly become a big deal, who comments on modern society and the role of technology in our lives in a way nobody else can. Not to mention he offers some representation for the physically handicapped (comic book representation so his disability isn't really a disability but still) and that's something not many offer.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #2172
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think Black Lightning would've worked better on the Big Seven then Cyborg or Mr. Terrific.

    Because, let's face it, you're never going to completely disconnect Cyborg from the Titans franchise no matter how hard you push him with the League in other media.

  13. #2173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Black Lightning would've worked better on the Big Seven then Cyborg or Mr. Terrific.

    Because, let's face it, you're never going to completely disconnect Cyborg from the Titans franchise no matter how hard you push him with the League in other media.
    I someone agree that Black Lightning deserved the push.

    But I can see why they did it. Technology, robotics and cyber technology is so modern and part of our everyday lives now, relative to when the original big 7 were first formed in the early 60s.

    But Cyborg will always be seen as a Titan first. While Black Lightning has the potential to be seen as a peer of the big 7. Especially his retcon as a father, gives a POV the other members wouldn’t have at the beginning of their Justice League careers.

    Add to that his dynamic as a teacher, veteran and activist.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 06-29-2020 at 09:35 AM.

  14. #2174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Black Lightning would've worked better on the Big Seven then Cyborg or Mr. Terrific.

    Because, let's face it, you're never going to completely disconnect Cyborg from the Titans franchise no matter how hard you push him with the League in other media.
    Ideally DC wouldn't have to force the character into one box or the other. Cyborg can still have his Titans history and be a member of the Justice League imo. Just because there are TV shows that depict him as a Titan doesn't mean in the comics he can't be depicted as a Leaguer-level hero with his own supporting cast, rogues gallery, and mythology.

    Nightwing doesn't have that constraint so I don't see why Cyborg should. He could be like Wolverine, roots in a team but with a core world of his own and connections across other franchises. The League could be one of them and that doesn't mean that Cyborg should be the only black Leaguer.

    The real difficult part is building him up as a solo leading man which comes down to DC's incompetence in how they write him. The most popular versions of Cyborg are without doubt the ones that are confident and past the tragedy of his origins. Why DC continues to write him as this emasculated man constantly questioning his own humanity is beyond me. That and the lack of push as a solo character with his own mythology.

  15. #2175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Black Lightning would've worked better on the Big Seven then Cyborg or Mr. Terrific.

    Because, let's face it, you're never going to completely disconnect Cyborg from the Titans franchise no matter how hard you push him with the League in other media.
    I feel like DC is reluctant to push Black Lightning because they're afraid of offending their more conservative fans.Removing his daughters doesn't help either.

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