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  1. #3196
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Supposedly she ret-conned Dick's ethnicity in part because DC wouldn't let her ret-con his sexual orientation to match her fanfiction or head-canon. Even if that's not true, the interview she did ten years after her run in which she revealed her thought process on both making him a Romani AND how she viewed his romantic life showed that she did almost no research on either. Her approach to the Romani ret-con was based almost entirely on stereotypes, and how she thought/approached Dick's love life went completely against how he'd been depicted as a boyfriend/lover before.
    it's crazy I'm trying to find those interviews, but I don't think I've seen them since the old DC forums or Comicvine. These interviews have to be around 15 years old. I'm trying to find the interviews where she differentiates non-consensual sex from rape. And I'm pretty sure there is another one where she says Dick's an adrenaline junkie and gets off on the rush. I think there was something about skin contact too, but it's been so long I might be misremembering.

    I think I'm forgetting a few storylines from that run. Didn't Dick join the mob or go undercover.
    Last edited by Jabare; 06-16-2021 at 07:25 PM.
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  2. #3197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Supposedly she ret-conned Dick's ethnicity in part because DC wouldn't let her ret-con his sexual orientation to match her fanfiction or head-canon. Even if that's not true, the interview she did ten years after her run in which she revealed her thought process on both making him a Romani AND how she viewed his romantic life showed that she did almost no research on either. Her approach to the Romani ret-con was based almost entirely on stereotypes, and how she thought/approached Dick's love life went completely against how he'd been depicted as a boyfriend/lover before.
    What is it that she wanted to do with him? I have acquired trades of the pre-52 Nightwing and hope to receive them soon. In the meantime, what's the short of the long?

  3. #3198
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I thin she was the one who said Nightwing has a 'fight or fuck' mentality. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I think I'm forgetting a few storylines from that run. Didn't Dick join the mob or go undercover.
    Are you thinking of the time he took up the identity of Renegade and worked for Deathstroke?

  4. #3199
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I thin she was the one who said Nightwing has a 'fight or fuck' mentality. lol



    Are you thinking of the time he took up the identity of Renegade and worked for Deathstroke?
    that sounds about right.


    I think this is the arc after the mob one. The one I'm talking about was around Nightwing 100+, after Blockbuster's death and the Tarantula incident. Dick's on crutches, he joins the mob and acts as an enforcer. I think he even does a job with Black Mask or some other villain.

    After that, we get the storyline your talking about. Deathstroke thinks Nightwing has gone bad and wants him to train Rose, etc., etc.

    Then like a dozen issues or more we get Chemo nuking Bludhaven in Infinite Crisis and Dick eventually moves to New York City, we get that random Jason Todd storyline and a few other random story arcs.
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  5. #3200
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    I remember the Grayson run being pretty poor and only found out about a lot of that stuff later on. I think Dixon walked the line on Dick being a player, stopping just short, but it only got worse after that.

    Dick is definitely a mess when it comes to his love life. I don't think he's intentionally a player, but he kind of loses control of his life and seemingly just tries to play catch-up and fails horribly. You need a solid run where he gets his shit together and sticks the landing before they can reconstruct him into someone a woman should trust with her heart.

  6. #3201
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    Have their been any sightings of Celsius or her hubby ?

  7. #3202
    Mighty Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think it's done because it's just so hard to launch actual new characters without an IP behind them and establish them as just as important as the old gang.
    I think this is just the perception, rather than the reality. Look at Kid Arachnid. He's remaining consistent despite their being a ton of blow back from fans, and I realize that that's a Marvel example, but it's not something I've seen happen in DC. Maybe Sideways comes to mind, if anybody?

  8. #3203
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I remember the Grayson run being pretty poor and only found out about a lot of that stuff later on. I think Dixon walked the line on Dick being a player, stopping just short, but it only got worse after that.

    Dick is definitely a mess when it comes to his love life. I don't think he's intentionally a player, but he kind of loses control of his life and seemingly just tries to play catch-up and fails horribly. You need a solid run where he gets his shit together and sticks the landing before they can reconstruct him into someone a woman should trust with her heart.
    At the time people thought it was going to be great with Devin and the art team. Since then Nightwing has had far superior runs. And in retrospect, the prior runs were better too.

    As far as love life goes, he wasn't a player historically. Dick is one of DC's earliest heroes after Batman and Superman, he predates Wonder Woman and Alfred. He's very well known and popular but he didn't blow up and get his added character depth until Wolfman started writing him in the 80s. People didn't start thinking of him as a "player" until the 2010s. Before that his real love drama was centered around Barbara. Then we had the Tom King "Grayson" run where they kind of James Bond him. Dick was that guy girls would flirt at and maybe he'd flirt back, but he's usually focused on more important things most of the time. Maybe that's changed these days.


    Off the top of my head, Dick's only had romantic relationships with:
    • Barbara Gordon
    • Koriand'r of Tamaran (Starfire)
    • Bridget Clancy (one of Dixon's better-supporting characters)
    • Huntress (she seduced him to get on good terms with Bruce)
    • Liu (she used him to get to Bruce Wayne)
    • Cheyenne Freemont (short-lived)
    • Sonia Zucco (we knew this wasn't going to last)
    • Alia [Spyral] (Tom King player mode activated)
    • Deborah Poulos (the museum curator in NYC, they were a good couple too bad she moved to California)
    • Raya Vestri (Childhood friend Haley circus)
    • Lori Elton (college girlfriend, she dumps him)
    • Terri Bergstrom (another college girlfriend)
    • Emily Washburn (Dick was investigating her for three murders)



    I'm not counting Tarantula (fight me lol). I'm not counting Raven they were just dreams and one kiss. And I'm not counting Mirage because she just made herself look like Starfire to get to him. I'm not counting Catwoman that was like one kiss. And I'm not counting Daphne Pennyworth either.


    I don't know if there was some internal editorial fighting between the Batbook and Titans, but Starfire has always been Dick's healthiest relationship even with the evil Raven saga.

    Barbara Gordon is probably the best choice for Dick narratively, but DC's fumbled that so many times I can't trust it. They tease it, but it's never meant to be. Plus Batman TAS kind of puts a big strain on that romance. It's such a big part of Batman's lore. Everyone's watched that cartoon and Timm made Barbara one of the driving factors to ending the Bruce and Dick partnership. Plus the whole romance with Bruce in Batwoman, Batman Beyond, and Killing Joke. I cannot unsee that, so mission accomplished Mr. Bruce Timm (yuck).


    Outside of the Barbara romance lingering in the background, Dick was always a one-woman guy. He wasn't like a modern dude with 6 different Tinder matches. He was pretty par for the course with other street-level heroes who made time to date. The Bat-books tend to ignore Starfire so it is what it is.
    Last edited by Jabare; 06-16-2021 at 09:13 PM.
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  9. #3204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    "tl;dr- Devin Grayson had a potentially all time great Nigthwing run at the time, then she Game of Thrones the ending. Her run was widely panned by Nightwing fans in the 00s and today.
    The Block Buster Tarantula thing wasn't her ending of he run, it was right in the middle.
    That happend in Nightwing #93, she was on the book untill Nightwing #117 (with a short break for Dixons Nightwing: Year One) when Blüdhaven was nuked.

  10. #3205
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    CW Oliver is still a better person than his comic counterpart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    At the time people thought it was going to be great with Devin and the art team. Since then Nightwing has had far superior runs. And in retrospect, the prior runs were better too.

    As far as love life goes, he wasn't a player historically. Dick is one of DC's earliest heroes after Batman and Superman, he predates Wonder Woman and Alfred. He's very well known and popular but he didn't blow up and get his added character depth until Wolfman started writing him in the 80s. People didn't start thinking of him as a "player" until the 2010s. Before that his real love drama was centered around Barbara. Then we had the Tom King "Grayson" run where they kind of James Bond him. Dick was that guy girls would flirt at and maybe he'd flirt back, but he's usually focused on more important things most of the time. Maybe that's changed these days.


    Off the top of my head, Dick's only had romantic relationships with:
    • Barbara Gordon
    • Koriand'r of Tamaran (Starfire)
    • Bridget Clancy (one of Dixon's better-supporting characters)
    • Huntress (she seduced him to get on good terms with Bruce)
    • Liu (she used him to get to Bruce Wayne)
    • Cheyenne Freemont (short-lived)
    • Sonia Zucco (we knew this wasn't going to last)
    • Alia [Spyral] (Tom King player mode activated)
    • Deborah Poulos (the museum curator in NYC, they were a good couple too bad she moved to California)
    • Raya Vestri (Childhood friend Haley circus)
    • Lori Elton (college girlfriend, she dumps him)
    • Terri Bergstrom (another college girlfriend)
    • Emily Washburn (Dick was investigating her for three murders)



    I'm not counting Tarantula (fight me lol). I'm not counting Raven they were just dreams and one kiss. And I'm not counting Mirage because she just made herself look like Starfire to get to him. I'm not counting Catwoman that was like one kiss. And I'm not counting Daphne Pennyworth either.


    I don't know if there was some internal editorial fighting between the Batbook and Titans, but Starfire has always been Dick's healthiest relationship even with the evil Raven saga.

    Barbara Gordon is probably the best choice for Dick narratively, but DC's fumbled that so many times I can't trust it. They tease it, but it's never meant to be. Plus Batman TAS kind of puts a big strain on that romance. It's such a big part of Batman's lore. Everyone's watched that cartoon and Timm made Barbara one of the driving factors to ending the Bruce and Dick partnership. Plus the whole romance with Bruce in Batwoman, Batman Beyond, and Killing Joke. I cannot unsee that, so mission accomplished Mr. Bruce Timm (yuck).


    Outside of the Barbara romance lingering in the background, Dick was always a one-woman guy. He wasn't like a modern dude with 6 different Tinder matches. He was pretty par for the course with other street-level heroes who made time to date. The Bat-books tend to ignore Starfire so it is what it is.
    I don't think anyone but the biggest of trolls is going to fight you whether Tarantula counts as a romantic relationship.

  11. #3206
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    edited post.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-17-2021 at 05:50 AM.

  12. #3207
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Supposedly she ret-conned Dick's ethnicity in part because DC wouldn't let her ret-con his sexual orientation to match her fanfiction or head-canon.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    She is also a fan who turned pro, there are rumors that she changed her last name to match Dick Grayson but like many fans who ended up writing their favorite character, she ended up doing more harm than good to her favorite character (also see Geoff Johns and Barry Allen).
    Alright, alright, sheaths on the rumors. This is a real person we're talking about. Let's just talk about things said on the interviews, because even then, I'm sure people forget some details since it's been so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I'm trying to find the interviews where she differentiates non-consensual sex from rape. And I'm pretty sure there is another one where she says Dick's an adrenaline junkie and gets off on the rush. I think there was something about skin contact too, but it's been so long I might be misremembering.
    She did say it's just non-consensual, but years later, around the time Grayson's published I think, a new look-back interview came out and she admitted she was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I thin she was the one who said Nightwing has a 'fight or fuck' mentality. lol
    I don't remember the exact word, adrenaline junkie or fight or fuck, but I understand what you guys mean, it's a similar vibe: her version was the inspiration for Tom King and Tim Seeley's brand of Dick Grayson who Leap Without Looking and Jumps Without A Net.

    That's one of the beef from NTT Dick fans against Grayson (both the author and the series) that Dick is supposed to be a planner but they write him as a total improviser.

    Oh yes, Seeley and King also were inspired and I think actually talked with Devin Grayson for their Dick Grayson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I don't know if there was some internal editorial fighting between the Batbook and Titans, but Starfire has always been Dick's healthiest relationship even with the evil Raven saga.
    Wasn't much a fight. The writers of Titans were building up on Nightwing-Starfire marriage with Wolfman and DC's approval (a mini was planned with promotional art published), but then they alongside other writers-artists annoyed about the lack of compensation/ownership decided to go into Image last minute.

    So the marriage's canceled, Wolfman took over and break them up, and Nightwing went to Bat books, and once he's in... I don't know. This is during the time where they made Batman an urban legend, so they probably want the same to Nightwing and cut off the presence of Titans from Bat Books and Nightwing, allowing them to pair Dick and Babs a few years later.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-17-2021 at 05:35 AM.

  13. #3208
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    TBF both her and Dixon were pushing Dick into being a playa. Then Weisman just cemented it with YJ.
    How did Dixon make him a playa? He dated one other woman during Dixon's run (Bridget), and that was before he and Barbara started dating and then later when he and Barbara were non-exclusively dating (she was flirting with Ted then). Then, when things got serious with Barbara, he told Bridget he was seeing someone else (when she was making a move to get more physical, it seems).

    I mean, there was some icky stuff in NTT as I understand it (quit reading by then). Though (again, I didn't read it) I understand it was also not consensual, and also that wasn't treated with the seriousness it should have been.

    Dick had a significant history by that point of being into serious relationships only (I'd say prior to NTT, this wasn't much explored, and he was neither a "commitment-only" or "every woman" guy in the limited context we saw). But yeah, it was a change I really didn't like.

    More than that, though I completely disagree with so much of what Grayson perceived as Dick's character from the bits of interviews I've read (more context might help, but I wasn't in the mood to read more). Incapable of serious/long-term relationships, no attention span, sexually interested in Bruce, processes with his body instead of brain (seriously?!), generally scatterbrained (this perception of him a "non-thinker" is one I loathe and has unfortunately stuck around in the comics and in fandom), etc. The decrease in intelligence, planning ability and detective skills and the decrease in the respect he has from other heroes (and also the fandom) frustrate me. All to often, he's not taken seriously. And his maturity level went down a great deal (not necessarily consistently, but often enough).

    Now some of this goes back the the early post-COIE days when we had to revisit his issues of living up to Bruce's standard and trying to prove himself (which made perfect sense at 19, but he should have been way past that by then), which was then harped on again by Dixon in his Nightwing and had given Dick a recycled trying-to-prove himself role that keeps him squarely inferior to Batman. Obviously the decline of the NTT as a popular title/team impacts his perception by fandom and, indeed, all of their roles in the canonical universe (canon fodder these days). But I still think she was terrible for Dick, despite other problems that came earlier.

    Oh, and was she the writer that had Donna say she realized was only dating Roy because she subconsciously needed to date someone unimpressive to challenge the idea she had to be perfect and thus she was ending the relationship. And Roy was like "hey, that' s A-okay with me."?
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-17-2021 at 07:06 AM.

  14. #3209
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The Block Buster Tarantula thing wasn't her ending of he run, it was right in the middle.
    That happend in Nightwing #93, she was on the book untill Nightwing #117 (with a short break for Dixons Nightwing: Year One) when Blüdhaven was nuked.
    Good point and technically you’d be right, but you can’t tell that to my subconscious lol
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  15. #3210
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Given the way he tends to treat other people, most heroes shouldn't be happy to see Batman when he shows up.

    It should be less "Oh yay! Only Batman can save us!" and more "Dammit. This a-hole again?"

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