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  1. #1096
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Actually, I'm not sure that's true. It seemed like much of his anger had passed, and then only popped up again when they decided to bring Tim in. And Bruce was much better with Dick and not abusive through the earlier 1990s, only to have it pop up again (on steroids) in the late 1990s.

    Victim-blaming came early from DC. Depressing, with it's quotes from writers and entry from the letters page. It's really heavy during the time Tim joins the team.
    Not every story was going to have Bruce be angry but there was a general sense of Bruce being more angry since he was the brooding loner again.

    I'm not talking about Bruce being abusive to Dick. I only ever think of early Chuck Dixon stuff when I think of that.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  2. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    And on the other Jason topic, if Jason had simply lived through "Death in the Family" but had still be beaten and traumatized by the Joker, the rest of his journey to become the Red Hood still could have turned out pretty much the same, imo.
    I doubt that.
    After "Death in the Family" the author got fired, and the Editorial was forced by some higher ups to create a new Robin (I think the original plan was to get rid of Robin completly).

    I Jason had survived I'm pretty sure they would have been forced to bring him back instead of creating Tim.

  3. #1098
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Superman doesn't need Lois Lane more than she needs him. He doesn't even need her for great stories.

    That said, I love Lois, she's a great character who can also work on her own, but historically, Superman has saved her from many death, including the movies and shows lol.

  4. #1099
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    If any character doesn't need the other, it's Lois Lane not needing Superman. Lois Lane was one of the first female reporters in comic books and comic strips, but she wasn't the only one. She could have easily been spun off into her own series and maintained it for a long time--especially once the popularity of super-hero comics dipped in the late 1940s and crime reporting stories were on the upswing. Indeed, she probably could have lasted even longer in her own newspaper adventure strip, like Brenda Starr which lasted from 1940 to 2011.

    Now Superman worked for a long time as a fish out of water story. You have Superman, the fish out of water, but you need a situation that provides suitable contrast to make that concept work--and you need characters in that situation. And Lois Lane was the leading character that represented that situation--the normal workings of a daily newspaper. She was created before any of the others--notably Perry and Jimmy--and Superman needed her to say and do the things that would heighten the sense of him being a fish out of water.
    celebrating 50 years of 4 beatles crossing a zebra

  5. #1100
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    I genuinely don't see the appeal of Lois Lane outside the context of a Superman story.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Doomsday Clock
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, Ironheart, Cosmic Ghost Rider etc., Venom, Moon Girl, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: Far Sector, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  6. #1101
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I genuinely don't see the appeal of Lois Lane outside the context of a Superman story.
    A sassy, take no prisoner, bombshell of a reporter dedicated to exposing the truth and righting wrongs in any way she can no matter what kind of danger she throws herself into? Feels fairly versatile in my opinion .

  7. #1102
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Ivan Reis' art has gotten stale. He should either mix up his creative partners (team with a different inker and bolder colorists) or leave DC for indie work / Marvel. Maybe both.

  8. #1103
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    The Kara Danvers/Supergirl on the TV show Supergirl is Lois Lane with superpowers, not a female version of Clark Kent/Superman.

  9. #1104
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    A sassy, take no prisoner, bombshell of a reporter dedicated to exposing the truth and righting wrongs in any way she can no matter what kind of danger she throws herself into? Feels fairly versatile in my opinion .
    iunno, people keep telling me how cool Lois is but much like Morrison, Star Wars, and Nolan films, she just doesn't live up to what people are telling me. she's just one of those side-characters I can't seem to get into like Jimmy Olsen or Carol Ferris. like it's not like I'd lose my mind with anger if they are on the page but I just wouldn't care to read a book about them specifically.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Doomsday Clock
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, Ironheart, Cosmic Ghost Rider etc., Venom, Moon Girl, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: Far Sector, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  10. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    The Kara Danvers/Supergirl on the TV show Supergirl is Lois Lane with superpowers, not a female version of Clark Kent/Superman.
    TV Supergirl is too likable to be Lois Lane. The only time I ever thought Lois was likable was in the Superman the Animated Series.

  11. #1106
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    Lois is restrained from breaking out, because she's so closely attached to Superman. If a creative team was free to tell Lois Lane stories without having to link her with Superman and have her serve as his love interest, they could do a lot more with her. It's Superman that keeps Lois down. Look at how Black Canary broke out when she was in the Birds of Prey and no longer had to serve Green Arrow's storyline.

    Not that I'm against the Lois and Clark team or the Dinah and Ollie team--but the women are great characters and it's not their fault if they get pushed to the side for the sake of the male hero.
    celebrating 50 years of 4 beatles crossing a zebra

  12. #1107
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Lois is restrained from breaking out, because she's so closely attached to Superman. If a creative team was free to tell Lois Lane stories without having to link her with Superman and have her serve as his love interest, they could do a lot more with her. It's Superman that keeps Lois down. Look at how Black Canary broke out when she was in the Birds of Prey and no longer had to serve Green Arrow's storyline.

    Not that I'm against the Lois and Clark team or the Dinah and Ollie team--but the women are great characters and it's not their fault if they get pushed to the side for the sake of the male hero.
    Thing is, in the superhero world DC is offering, Lois Lane can make for some great Astro City-esque stories. Occasionally.

    Trying to make an ongoing out of her requires opening up the DCU to be a broader environment that what their showing us. DC has been steadily narrowing its environment over the last 35 years. There were a few attempts to open it up here and there (Vertigo, All-Star Western), but the publisher has been steadily doubling down on making their world exclusively about the superheroes and what's going on with them.

    Taking that as a given, you're left with two options for Lois. First, try to make a superhero out of her, which starts messing with Superman's entire brand, and so, ain't happenin'. Second, use her as a window into a world beyond that we normally look at in DC, which works from time to time, but probably isn't sustainable for a long run.

  13. #1108
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    It's interesting that just as DC is being more and more about super-heroes and nothing but super-heroes all the time and every day in their comic books, over on the live action scene, we have stories that are not about super-heroing at all or not very much. We have the upcoming JOKER which is in a grounded reality--if not in our reality. And likewise PENNYWORTH, which but for the mysticism could just be an action spy thriller. I could see Lois Lane getting her own series or movie--if they could take the Superman out of the story and just set it in the world of crime reporting.
    celebrating 50 years of 4 beatles crossing a zebra

  14. #1109
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Superman doesn't need Lois Lane more than she needs him. He doesn't even need her for great stories.

    That said, I love Lois, she's a great character who can also work on her own, but historically, Superman has saved her from many death, including the movies and shows lol.
    The original appeal of Lois was an example of someone who went against the odds, busted the glass ceiling (for the Golden Age anyway), and was everything Clark kent was without the privilege of gender and super-powers. If we have a Superman story where he's dealing with cosmic stuff and super-villains, then Lois becomes a hostage placeholder and isn't needed. But in a look at Superman dealing with his humanity, Lois is an example of what people can do.

  15. #1110
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's interesting that just as DC is being more and more about super-heroes and nothing but super-heroes all the time and every day in their comic books, over on the live action scene, we have stories that are not about super-heroing at all or not very much. We have the upcoming JOKER which is in a grounded reality--if not in our reality. And likewise PENNYWORTH, which but for the mysticism could just be an action spy thriller. I could see Lois Lane getting her own series or movie--if they could take the Superman out of the story and just set it in the world of crime reporting.
    I've said this before, but my ideal DCUniverse show would be a Metropolis version of The Wire with Lois as one of the POV characters. Set it before Superman comes in, with Luthor coming and getting his tendrils all into the city, you now have the Invisible Mafia as well you can work into things. It'd be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    The original appeal of Lois was an example of someone who went against the odds, busted the glass ceiling (for the Golden Age anyway), and was everything Clark kent was without the privilege of gender and super-powers. If we have a Superman story where he's dealing with cosmic stuff and super-villains, then Lois becomes a hostage placeholder and isn't needed. But in a look at Superman dealing with his humanity, Lois is an example of what people can do.
    I don't think it's that difficult to work Lois into those type of stories either though. A human POV character does have value in those settings. Really, it's not that difficult to tell a story without putting her in the damsel role. It's just one of the easiest so it's a fall back for a lot of writers who don't put in the effort. Much of the "Lois is bad" because she's a damsel stuff seems to be cover for just disliking her character. Superman's function in most stories is save people. The entirety of the human race is his "damsel" yet it's only an issue for Lois.

    My controversial opinion... hmmm. I think generally the Green Lanterns and the Green Lantern Corps are boring. No matter who - Hal, Guy, John, Kyle, etc. Never seen the appeal and it's gotten worse over the years as they expanded the spectrum. I think characters like Adam Strange, Hawkman, etc. are much better windows into the DCU cosmic stuff.
    Last edited by Yoda; 09-10-2019 at 11:38 AM.

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