Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[I'm a Fish]

Batman and the Flash have the least formidable villains

Flash has really formidable villains.

Batman has Poison Ivy, who they scaled up to Swamp Thing levels. The rest aren't that formidable, though (or shouldn't be anyway).

I don't know how you can say that when Joker has beaten Flash and Superman worse than any of their villains

He really shouldn't be able too though. Frankly anytime Joker steps outside Gotham to fight any other Justice League member, he should get a reality check. Unless he does something sneaky and goes after their family, or they are people like Green Arrow, ect.

[SiegePerilous02]

I've seen plenty fans defend Bruce's torture, abuse and a whole bunch of other stuff that is far less defensible than him killing. On this very site, I've seen fans defend his abuse of the Batfamily (usually because they don't like them).

There might be some fans who dislike Bruce using torture but it doesn't draw nearly as much controversy as him killing. And usually when they do claim complain about him using torture, it's when it is accompanied by him using lethal force.

Of course there are fans who are fine with it. But there are plenty of others who hate it. Batman has been around for so long and been through so many differing iterations that he's divisive. But the fact of the matter is that not everyone is cool with the torture or excessive brutality and also don't want him to kill.

And if said fans complain about the torture and the lethal force simultaneously, isn't that kind of proving my point for me?

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But killing the Joker certainly isn't on the same level as, say, what he did to Dick after the latter nearly died in Forever Evil.

The fact that the latter scenario even exists is proof enough for me that they wouldn't be able to handle it well. Any company that publishes that clearly doesn't get Bruce as a character at this point.

That presumes him killing at all is ruining his character.

It's a generally accepted part of his character at this point across most of his comic versions and animated versions. And honestly, George Clooney and Adam West are probably the most accurate takes on his character in live action, which speaks volumes. Bruce's conviction that nobody dies on his watch is childish and naive in many ways, but comes from a good place and even if we disagree with it, it's who he is. We don't have to agree with it. Like Robanker said, it's part of the parcel and if it's not something a fan like, maybe Batman isn't for them.

But a lot of writers at DC don't respect their heroes and their convictions anymore. If Bruce's character is determined to protect people from being victimized and to preserving life, he shouldn't be so quick to torture anybody or dish out excessive beatings that could easily result in death. That already is a disservice to his character, and him being ok with killing under any circumstances would change him further to the point where it's not him anymore. The torture is in its own way as bad for Bruce as Diana being Flanderized to a sword wielding barbarian who kills first, asks questions later.

And yes, Bruce's determination not to excessively harm or kill anybody even by accident and always succeeding in that would be unrealistic, but the majority of people aren't engaging with Batman fiction for realism. It's not what he's about.

[CosmiComic]

Well really these things go hand in hand.

The business reality is that characters (heroes and villains) are popular and financially worth reusing. So heroes can't kill because guys like Lex and Joker help sell comics. Or, if the hero does kill, they only end up killing the unpopular ones.

And that requirement kind of forces a failure of the justice system within the fiction. You can do stories about the bad guy in jail, but in order for the character to retain their full usefulness, at some point they gotta escape. Which means the justice system failed.

Of course, the entire genre is built on the premise that the justice system doesn't work anyway. If superheroes believed in the system, they'd be cops and firefighters and politicians instead of wearing masks, taking the law into their own hands, and keeping their identities secret.

The justice system never worked, but not in the way comics show. In reality, minority demographics are both overpoliced and underprotected. But comics like Spider-Man and Batman act like it's all bank robbers, even in 2021. And the law has often been a tool to criminalize the lives of underprivileged demographics, yet our trusty street level vigilantes seem to work alongside the cops anyway. Vigilantism can also be harmful to people but comics don't have the will to confront that outside of extreme examples like the Punisher. But if comics did change their direction, some people would criticize for being too 'political,' whatever that means. All in all, though, this 'escape' is a very middle class, and frankly, White male view not entirely reflecting the reality of all demographics.

Aside from that, it wouldn't hurt to actually allow these fictional universes to progress instead of stagnate. At least create new villains. Because IIRC criminals escaping isn't really a common or realistic threat. So complaining about "Batman won't kill" is frankly idiotic to me. How about "Keep the villains in jail"?

[Ascended]

The justice system is a failure in the real world, depending upon your personal perspective.

I honestly don't think too much about fictional villains getting away to plot evil when real life evildoers do the same thing.

And this too, yeah. Hard to fault DC for Lex Luthor lawyering his way out of trouble when the same thing happens in the real world on a regular basis.

The difference is we don't have costumed vigilantes prowling the night doing what the justice system has failed/refused to do. And if we did....holy hell the reaction would be quite the spectacle.

It being a finite story means they are under no obligation to keep the villains alive. I'm not saying they have to kill them off but them dying isn't a problem if they aren't coming back. Might as well close the door on them completely.

In other media I am perfectly fine with lethal force (when that fits the character) and imprisonment that actually sticks. But I thought we were talking exclusively about comics, and you know as well as I do why that doesn't happen. $$$$

[Ascended]

The justice system never worked, but not in the way comics show. In reality, minority demographics are both overpoliced and underprotected. But comics like Spider-Man and Batman act like it's all bank robbers, even in 2021.

I'm well aware of the failures of the justice system, trust me. I have an inside view of it, thanks to my wife who works in law (and she's not white so yay we get some BS from the socio-cultural end of things too!). And yes, it's disgusting a lot of the time. I doubt anyone here is going to step up and defend the justice system too passionately.

And it's less bank robbers these days, and more terrorists, really.

Have you been reading Son of Kal-El? That's been touching on some actual social issues, and thus far has handled it better than most modern attempts to do so.

Aside from that, it wouldn't hurt to actually allow these fictional universes to progress instead of stagnate. At least create new villains. Because IIRC criminals escaping isn't really a common or realistic threat.

New villains (and heroes) are created all the time. They just don't typically stick (when was the last time any of the New Age heroes showed up? Those guys were great!). And no, criminals escaping prison isn't a common real world occurrence (it does happen, but rarely), but solar powered alien gods aren't a real world concern either. It's superhero comics; silly and childish by nature and design, and the more we try to align the fiction with our reality, the less the genre functions properly. Same with high fantasy and sci-fi; there are things in stories like Lord of the Rings and Dune that just do not work when judged by real world metrics. I mean, imagine taking Dune and demanding that every facet of spice be aligned by real world problems and opinions of drug addiction? Or demanding that the Wheel of Time try to handle non-binary people with regards to the One Power and who gets to channel which half?

Comics are, have always been, and should be, political. But that doesn't mean their narrative is capable of fitting around every aspect of reality or the multitude of opinions therein. Nor does it mean each of us will agree with the politics when they're presented.

[mathew101281]

Flash has really formidable villains.

Batman has Poison Ivy, who they scaled up to Swamp Thing levels. The rest aren't that formidable, though (or shouldn't be anyway).




He really shouldn't be able too though. Frankly anytime Joker steps outside Gotham to fight any other Justice League member, he should get a reality check. Unless he does something sneaky and goes after their family, or they are people like Green Arrow, ect.

Some versions of Clayface are pretty powerful to.

[CosmiComic]

I'm well aware of the failures of the justice system, trust me. I have an inside view of it, thanks to my wife who works in law (and she's not white so yay we get some BS from the socio-cultural end of things too!). And yes, it's disgusting a lot of the time. I doubt anyone here is going to step up and defend the justice system too passionately.

And it's less bank robbers these days, and more terrorists, really.

Have you been reading Son of Kal-El? That's been touching on some actual social issues, and thus far has handled it better than most modern attempts to do so.

I haven't read that yet but I will when I can.

But one of my main qualms is the street level vigilantes always end up working with the police anyway

New villains (and heroes) are created all the time. They just don't typically stick (when was the last time any of the New Age heroes showed up? Those guys were great!). And no, criminals escaping prison isn't a common real world occurrence (it does happen, but rarely), but solar powered alien gods aren't a real world concern either. It's superhero comics; silly and childish by nature and design, and the more we try to align the fiction with our reality, the less the genre functions properly. Same with high fantasy and sci-fi; there are things in stories like Lord of the Rings and Dune that just do not work when judged by real world metrics. I mean, imagine taking Dune and demanding that every facet of spice be aligned by real world problems and opinions of drug addiction? Or demanding that the Wheel of Time try to handle non-binary people with regards to the One Power and who gets to channel which half?

Comics are, have always been, and should be, political. But that doesn't mean their narrative is capable of fitting around every aspect of reality or the multitude of opinions therein. Nor does it mean each of us will agree with the politics when they're presented.

I don't 100% agree. No offense, but I think it could come off a little dismissive to refer to this medium as 'childish and silly' and thus not deserving of more thought (if that's what you're saying). And solar powered alien superbeings don't exist at all (that we know of as Earthlings), so it's not really the same situation. Street level superheroes and vigilantes always incorporate real world crime and government into their mythos, versus alien civilizations we aren't sure exist in the same way if at all. And I wouldn't bring this up as much if I didn't always hear "Batman needs to kill".

As for new villains, they don't stick because DC and Marvel always fall back on the old ones. Same with the heroes, to a lesser extent

[I'm a Fish]

Some versions of Clayface are pretty powerful to.

Yeah, that’s true.

[Ascended]

I don't 100% agree. No offense, but I think it could come off a little dismissive to refer to this medium as 'childish and silly' and thus not deserving of more thought (if that's what you're saying).

No, not really. Comics were always escapist entertainment designed for children, so in that way they're "childish and silly" but they also long ago proved capable of deeper commentary.

But we're dealing with super powered people, aliens, wizards, and gods fighting against other super powered people, aliens, wizards and gods. Oh, and they all wear spandex with bright logos on the chest. This is not "grounded, serious" storytelling.

Superheroes at their best have one foot in ridiculous, escapist entertainment where the ills that plague us are stripped down to the fault of a obvious and overt "villain" defeated by a "hero" who applies the kind of straightforward, simplistic "bully the bully" ethics most of us wish we could dispense on those we disagree with (childish and silly) and one foot in stark, sometimes damning, social commentary that exposes the hypocrisy and failures of our culture.

So yes. Comics are childish and silly. That's not all they are, but it's a mistake for us to forget that at the end of the day this is still a genre about good guys beating up bad guys. What I'm saying is that we should not be surprised when our comics are childish and silly, because they are. That's just not *all* they are.

[Anthony Shaw]

And this too, yeah. Hard to fault DC for Lex Luthor lawyering his way out of trouble when the same thing happens in the real world on a regular basis.

It was classic when DC had Lex as president during the W. Bush era.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't 100% agree. No offense, but I think it could come off a little dismissive to refer to this medium as 'childish and silly' and thus not deserving of more thought (if that's what you're saying). And solar powered alien superbeings don't exist at all (that we know of as Earthlings), so it's not really the same situation. Street level superheroes and vigilantes always incorporate real world crime and government into their mythos, versus alien civilizations we aren't sure exist in the same way if at all. And I wouldn't bring this up as much if I didn't always hear "Batman needs to kill".

So yes. Comics are childish and silly. That's not all they are, but it's a mistake for us to forget that at the end of the day this is still a genre about good guys beating up bad guys. What I'm saying is that we should not be surprised when our comics are childish and silly, because they are. That's just not *all* they are.

I think comics as a medium has such a vast array of stories and topics for differing audiences that it largely depends on what we are talking about when it comes to determining if they are childish and silly or not.

Superhero as a genre within comics though, yeah they are inherently childish and silly. Increased discussion of mature topics (often a surface level take at that) and increased violence, swearing and sexuality do not make them any less silly. In a lot of ways, the more serious you try to take the genre and force those things into it, the dumber it gets. There is nothing wrong with embracing the reality that they are childhood escapist fantasies, that doesn't mean they are incapable of having themes that resonate and layered characters. They just work better when they work in tandem with what the characters actually are instead of trying to force a certain type of maturity onto them.

And this holds true for the movies as well, including the Nolan Batman movies. None of them are particularly deep films.

[Gaius]

Vandal Savage isn’t that interesting a villain.

[Stanlos]

As portrayed (jobbed) by Snyder in the first part of TOTALITY he certainly is not. I would love a prestige project on him by Warren Ellis and top tier visual support

[Midnight_v]

Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post

Some versions of Clayface are pretty powerful to.
Yeah, that’s true.

Came here to say this, cause I think Clayface has one of those powersets that are probably vastly more powerful than how he
routinely uses them. He can shapeshift, clone himself, Create autonomous sentient drones, and infect/possesses people tuning them into clay things. Its how they wanna use it pretty carte blanche.

Vandal Savage isn’t that interesting a villain.

As portrayed (jobbed) by Snyder in the first part of TOTALITY he certainly is not. I would love a prestige project on him by Warren Ellis and top tier visual support

Same thing here an immortal being living through literally "ALL" of human history is inherently kind of an interesting concept. So its like that alone gives him a broad range to BE greatly interesting
depending on how they use them

[lemonpeace]

If DC did another reboot, I would replace Lynn with Katana as Black Lightning’s primary love interest and keep Anissa and Jennifer but as their kids. the maseo stuff happens as part of her origin, she moved passed it and became Katana, they meet on Outsiders, get married and have Jen and Anissa.