Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Aahz]

the Al Ghuls were white (or whiteish) looking from the start, despite their current locale, when originally created. Maybe they should have been otherwise (which is kinda iffy with Ra's and Talia, since we only knew where he was and the name he'd been given, not his real history or race and when readers wrote letters asking, the answer was avoided and of course, people don't all look the same in the region), but they weren't. Also, I wasn't fond of the casting (or, to be fair, story) for either of them in the movies.

The Al Ghuls (and the League of Asassins as a whole) are anyway wired mix of a lot of asian pulp sterotypes.
I mean they are supposed to be from the middle east, but their basis in is typically in the Himalayas, their "foot soldiers" wear typically Japanese "Ninja" weapons and cloth, and the more important Members of the LoA seem to come anyway from all over the world.

And Since Nolan, the Live Action adaptation seem to usually go anyway with idea that Ras Al Ghul is nut a single Person, but the Title of the current Leader of the LoA and that there have been several holder of this title over the years.

[Aahz]

Race swapping is so over done and lame. It’s basically saying our minority characters aren’t good enough, here’s a White character played by a non White actor. Just think how disappointed young Black kids will be when they see Hawkman and then go to buy his merchandise where it’s nothing but the White version

The thing is also that at least when it comes to team movies and series, there are usually allready non white characters you could use instead.
In case of the JSA you have for example Mr. Terrific and Jakeem Thunder.

Same goes for example for the black Tim Drake on the Titans show, there would have been really enough black characters to chose from in the Batfranchise and in Titans. Maybe not as high profile as Tim Drake, but I doubt that adding a Tim to the show will bring in that many new viewers.

[Restingvoice]

I think race swapping works in live action because aside it being an adaptation, it has more audience, so it's good for the brand, gives more role to POC actors, and more exposure slash inspiration for people who see it. Also there can be multiple version with every generation and they're not the same story or worldbuilding as the previous version. If the previous version contain something that doesn't fit with the current generation, they only need to make a new movie with new continuity, because they're not bound by years old comic continuity. It's easier to adjust to the sensibility of current generation.

In comics it doesn't work as well because comics is OLD, the story is old and so they still want to use the same classic origin, status quo, or whatever that have lasted 20 years or more. Both the writers and the audience. It's not something that you can adjust with current sensibilities too much. Not just race, but other politics too. The billionaire Bruce Wayne issue, the All Cops Are Bad thing, and so on.

The current knowledge doesn't fit how the world has been built for years and they can't just do it like movies and make a new one besides setting it in a different earth or just straight up reboot because they have built decades of worldbuilding and fans.

[Aahz]

I think race swapping works in live action because aside it being an adaptation, it has more audience, so it's good for the brand, gives more role to POC actors, and more exposure slash inspiration for people who see it.

I still think it should be avoided if you could just use a different character instead.
And since the swapped characters are often only support characters, and (at least in case of the CW shows) often anyway not really characters that are part of the comic.

[mathew101281]

I still think it should be avoided if you could just use a different character instead.
And since the swapped characters are often only support characters, and (at least in case of the CW shows) often anyway not really characters that are part of the comic.

It’s really tells a lot about the comics community that the only way to get diversity is to swap existing characters. Either...

1. Fans have been trained not to accept new characters.
2. Creators aren’t t really encouraged and incentivized to create new characters.
3. And publishers don’t really have the patience to spend time allowing new characters to develop and grow.

None of these things bode well for the big two as anything but IP holders.

[Aahz]

2. Creators aren’t t really encouraged and incentivized to create new characters.

Depends what you mean with new characters, I have the feeling that they add way more new characters to the existing franchises, what you don't see much is new characters that aren't part of a franchise.

They tried it with New Age of Heroes, but that didn't go anywhere.

[dietrich]

There it is.

Kelley Pucket and J.P. llidge fought for Cassandra Cain, and after the character's keep getting pressed down, the fans don't stop demanding for the right treatment. Patrick Gleason listened to fans and was the first one to draw Damian to be less white. Scott Snyder keeps pushing for Duke.

Other authors and artists are like whatever, and a lot of readers too.

On variant covers, they don't really care to inform the artist, so you get many variant artists drawing current Huntress in the classic skin tone when she's supposed to be darker.

If DC's whatever about original character of color, then the result's gonna be whatever too.

Lol1 You are funny.

[phonogram12]

It’s really tells a lot about the comics community that the only way to get diversity is to swap existing characters. Either...

1. Fans have been trained not to accept new characters.
2. Creators aren’t t really encouraged and incentivized to create new characters.
3. And publishers don’t really have the patience to spend time allowing new characters to develop and grow.

None of these things bode well for the big two as anything but IP holders.

All of this.

[Tzigone]

It’s really tells a lot about the comics community that the only way to get diversity is to swap existing characters. Either...

1. Fans have been trained not to accept new characters.
2. Creators aren’t t really encouraged and incentivized to create new characters.
3. And publishers don’t really have the patience to spend time allowing new characters to develop and grow.

None of these things bode well for the big two as anything but IP holders.

All of this.

I rather agree. I know it's so hard to build a successful new character that isn't part of an existing franchise. I know part of that is from the model of keeping the same readers a long time (we only have so much time, attention, or money and tend to put it into characters we either know we like or have a connection to ones we already like) and the subscription model, which is probably more of the same. It makes it very difficult to expand readership instead of shifting it around, it sometimes seems. Though that could just be my imagination.

I'd like the idea of seeing more new non-franchise characters, but I admit I don't very often seek them out. Of course, I only want certain kinds, and they absolutely cannot replace characters I already like. Expansion would be good, but of course, there's only so many issues that seem to move. If they could do it, without crapping on existing characters to establish them or needing Batman to endorse the new hero, that would great. As for the certain kinds - no destined or fated to succeed characters or born-special-among-their-own-people characters (that didn't used to bother me, so older characters are grandfathered in, but the older I get the more I like ordinary people becoming extraordinary for characters and the less and less I like any predestination or arrangement by a controlling party), and no morally ambiguous characters, and I like ones that are of ordinary background and then something happened and they made a choice to be heroes. Less of the tragic backgrounds is my thing. So, of course, doing what I want is a terrible idea for DC because it will not sell. Anyway, obviously I like some that cross some of my lines (and Jaime, who both was a legacy and very annoyingly got Bat's blessing, but he hasn't been new in a long time and would have been better without being a legacy, IMO, and I had to be exposed to him via comic panels (the YJ cartoon version didn't make an impression) posted elsewhere before I'd give him a shot, I admit).

[phonogram12]

It almost seems like new characters are introduced just so they can be used for future television or movie projects, which definitely provides an incentive given the royalties, but also just makes their creation ring kind of...hollow?

From what I've noticed, most creators tend to keep their best ideas for themselves for their own creator owned projects, which only makes sense since a.) they have complete creative control of the property and b.) if it gets adapted into something, they get the whole pie, not just the slice DC or Marvel decides to give them.

[skyvolt2000]

From what I've noticed, most creators tend to keep their best ideas for themselves for their own creator owned projects, which only makes sense since a.) they have complete creative control of the property and b.) if it gets adapted into something, they get the whole pie, not just the slice DC or Marvel decides to give them.

That is why I would rather take established guys in limbo and rebuild them.

Scott Snyder keeps pushing for Duke.

HOW??????

A 3 part mini, being a joke in Batman & Outsiders, a half crappy story in Batman 100 pager, cameos in Batman until 2018 and a one shot is NOT a push. That is tokenism 101.

They tried it with New Age of Heroes, but that didn't go anywhere.

Compared to folks like Bumblebee-they did more in comics than her.

It’s really tells a lot about the comics community that the only way to get diversity is to swap existing characters. Either...

Well when DC & Marvel have tried the line starts to the left of folks taking issue with it.

Meanwhile every other company is not having these issues.

Bitter Root at Image has a movie deal and is about a black family.
Spawn has tossed out spinoffs and starred a black guy.
Walking Dead and various Boom books KILLING IT.

So you're DC and see this COMMON BUSINESS SENSE says you have to do something. Because those books are taking your customers.

Fans can not keep viewing certain books as some attack on them.

If Dc does a Black Lightning book with his daughters-it's not pandering to SJW or black Twitter. That is called trying to build up a black hero because you are trailing not just Spawn but Black Panther, Static, Luke Cage and Miles Morales.

If DC does a Beast Boy book-that is not a middle finger at JSA. He has a OGN that sold VERY well and a new one that is tops in preorders on Amazon. He EARNED that shot.

New Age Heroes is not an attack on Hal Jordan. That is battling a market that kept the The Boys and Walking Dead alive to bank on all those trades.

[TheRay]

Poison Ivy would make a great solo comic run.

[Kid Devil]

Removing America from Justice League was a bad idea. From previous years I was told by some fans that it's because DC wanted the Justice League to represent the world's beliefs but now there is the Justice League of China so that must not be so. Personally, I think DC values China more than America which is why this happened.

[Aahz]

Compared to folks like Bumblebee-they did more in comics than her.

Bumblebee wasn't a new independent character, she was a part of the Teen Titans franchise.

If Dc does a Black Lightning book with his daughters-it's not pandering to SJW or black Twitter. That is called trying to build up a black hero because you are trailing not just Spawn but Black Panther, Static, Luke Cage and Miles Morales.

To be fair:
- Luke Cage hasn't had solo that lasted for more than a few issues in long time (and Black Lightnings TV Series lasted way longer than Luke Cage on Netflix)
- how big Static still is really hard to tell
- If you could get Todd McFarlane (or another creator that popular) on a Black Lightning book, it would probably also sell

[Jabare]

If DC wants to give Batman all 5 Robins in live-action they should differentiate them a little more