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  1. #3586
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Understandable? Relatable? When it's a metaphysical concept that doesn't follow the rules of real-life at all? The idea it'd be more relatable than being in an unfamiliar place surrounded by strangers is.... incomprehensible. The bullying analogy makes no sense unless it's directed by intelligently controlled malice... which.. they did that with the Dark Angel story.... and it was confusing.
    The cosmic bullying analogy makes sense because it's about divine entities throwing failure and ridicule and sadness at her, and her being aware of it and overcoming it with the help of Diana.

  2. #3587
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Absolutely. And it rewrites her history to an extent that prior events and characterizations don't really mesh. As she was depicted in her early days, she just didn't have that kind of trauma. And I really don't want to see more angst and trauma heaped on characters. I'm not saying it can never work, but it is overdone, IMO, and much worse when retconned in. And it's just distasteful and diminishes Diana's accomplishments, too. I also don't like people with mundane births retconned to make them special (like Cassie or even Diana, who started out special) or prophesied (really hate prophecy and destiny). Super-duper-cursed is only very, very marginally less annoying than super-duper-blessed
    The early days? The early days of Donna were the impossible tales by Robert Kanigher. That's where she gets her whole characterization, such as envying Diana, feeling insufficient, and even the romances. There was nothing mundane about those impossible tales.

  3. #3588
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The cosmic bullying analogy makes sense because it's about divine entities throwing failure and ridicule and sadness at her, and her being aware of it and overcoming it with the help of Diana.
    Makes sense to who? the writer or the reader? How would you write that into a story so it makes sense to someone who wasn't told that ahead of time?

  4. #3589
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The early days? The early days of Donna were the impossible tales by Robert Kanigher. That's where she gets her whole characterization, such as envying Diana, feeling insufficient, and even the romances. There was nothing mundane about those impossible tales.
    My understanding is that was not Donna - that was young Diana (as was Wonder Tot). Wonder Girl only became Donna, a separate character, with Teen Titans. Indeed, in the old letters pages, you have fans asking who Wonder Girl is, now that she isn't Diana. Took her an age to get a name. Still beat poor Garth by years, though. I am talking about Donna, in the Teen Titans stories, not the Impossible Tales young Diana (I only read a couple of those, though).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-04-2021 at 05:34 PM.

  5. #3590

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    The only thing this 'cosmic punching bag' idea will result in is people being more confused and hating Diana by proxy for being 'perfect' while Donna suffers. It does nothing to make the character accessible to fans and at worst it will result in more Barry/Zoom eseque memes ' IT WAS ME DONNA! I DID IT! I WAS THE ONE WHO LEFT THE HAIR BAND ON YOUR WRIST AT YOUR WEDDING! NOW ALL YOUR WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHS ARE RUINED!'.

  6. #3591
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The only thing this 'cosmic punching bag' idea will result in is people being more confused and hating Diana by proxy for being 'perfect' while Donna suffers. It does nothing to make the character accessible to fans and at worst it will result in more Barry/Zoom eseque memes ' IT WAS ME DONNA! I DID IT! I WAS THE ONE WHO LEFT THE HAIR BAND ON YOUR WRIST AT YOUR WEDDING! NOW ALL YOUR WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHS ARE RUINED!'.
    Yeah, that too.

  7. #3592
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    My understanding is that was not Donna - that was young Diana (as was Wonder Tot). Wonder Girl only became Donna, a separate character, with Teen Titans. Indeed, in the old letters pages, you have fans asking who Wonder Girl is, now that she isn't Diana. Took her an age to get a name. Still beat Garth by decades, though. I am talking about Donna, in the Teen Titans stories, not the Impossible Tales young Diana (I only read a couple of those, though).
    Yes it was a supposedly a younger Diana, but the character herself was written as if they were two distinct people. They had different personalities and Wonder Girl talked about Wonder Woman as if it was someone else. When Teen Titans started Donna was written the exact same way Wonder Girl was written by Robert Kanigher, and all the development Donna eventually had under Wolfman spurred from this characterization by Robert Kanigher. Island

    If I remember correctly, Wonder Girl even had a crush on the much older Steve Trevor, and look at who Donna ended up marrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The only thing this 'cosmic punching bag' idea will result in is people being more confused and hating Diana by proxy for being 'perfect' while Donna suffers. It does nothing to make the character accessible to fans and at worst it will result in more Barry/Zoom eseque memes ' IT WAS ME DONNA! I DID IT! I WAS THE ONE WHO LEFT THE HAIR BAND ON YOUR WRIST AT YOUR WEDDING! NOW ALL YOUR WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHS ARE RUINED!'.
    Wait what? What's confusing about a magic clone made for the twisted pleasure of divine entities (Titans or something else) since they couldn't touch Diana herself.

    I'm not proposing that Donna continue to be cursed by the Titans afterwards. Once Diana finds out she exists and rescues her, Donna is brought to our world so she can overcome her sad childhood and the memories she has of Diana's happy life on Paradise Island.
    Last edited by Alpha; 08-05-2021 at 02:56 AM.

  8. #3593
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm not proposing that Donna continue to be cursed by the Titans afterwards.
    I like the idea of Donna being blessed by Rhea more.

    Also.... WHY??? you still glossed over that. What you posted is a pretty lame revenge plot. It's paper thin premise, that needs a lot of background to make sense.

  9. #3594
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I like the idea of Donna being blessed by Rhea more.
    Rhea doesn't even have a role in the WW history. And she did nothing important in the Greek Mythology aside from saving Zeus.

    Also.... WHY??? you still glossed over that. What you posted is a pretty lame revenge plot. It's paper thin premise, that needs a lot of background to make sense.
    What background? Some kind of twisted deity wanted to get to Diana but knew they couldn't, so they created this other creature for them to humiliate continuously.

    Or maybe it was a game where someone tried to attack Paradise Island and someone else created Donna as a compromise. This isn't complicated.


    And the reason why? Donna being adopted isn't an interesting origin story.

    Plus it creates all kinds of questions about why she herself is the only orphan ever allowed to stay on Paradise Island before and after Diana was born,

    it takes away from how Diana's history on the island has been written for the most part as the only daughter of the amazons (like in the beautiful "The Circle" by Gail Simone)

    it creates this weird thing where Donna only spent a few years on Paradise Island, and left as a teenager for no clear reason, even though Diana wasn't allowed to leave until she was much older;

    It doesn't explain why Donna looks exactly like Diana;

    what you claim is a simpler solution than mine, turns into all of these big problems for a premise that isn't even compelling to new readers (or to a fan like me).
    Last edited by Alpha; 08-05-2021 at 07:21 AM.

  10. #3595
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Johns is better than he's given credit for.

  11. #3596
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Rhea doesn't even have a role in the WW history. And she did nothing important in the Greek Mythology aside from saving Zeus.
    Yes, Rhea's not one of WW's patrons. Which is part of why I like the Rhea story, Donna has a different source of power than WW.
    What background? Some kind of twisted deity wanted to get to Diana but knew they couldn't, so they created this other creature for them to humiliate continuously.

    Or maybe it was a game where someone tried to attack Paradise Island and someone else created Donna as a compromise. This isn't complicated.
    You... didn't even finish writing out an outline of the idea, and you say it's "not complicated"? It's easy for an unfinished idea to be "simple".... it's unfinished. Like a clock with no internal workings, it's just a decorative box.
    And the reason why? Donna being adopted isn't an interesting origin story.
    I think the Titan Seed story was quite good actually.
    Plus it creates all kinds of questions about why she herself is the only orphan ever allowed to stay on Paradise Island before and after Diana was born,
    In some continuities most of the Amazons are adopted orphans.
    it takes away from how Diana's history on the island has been written for the most part as the only daughter of the amazons (like in the beautiful "The Circle" by Gail Simone)
    Except when it's not....
    it creates this weird thing where Donna only spent a few years on Paradise Island, and left as a teenager for no clear reason, even though Diana wasn't allowed to leave until she was much older;
    How is that weird if she leaves after Diana does? Hippolyta's reason for wanting Diana to not leave had nothing to do with Diana's age.
    It doesn't explain why Donna looks exactly like Diana;
    Is this still canon? I know she is drawn looking very similar, but I'm not sure if having her appearance be identical is actually canon now.
    what you claim is a simpler solution than mine, turns into all of these big problems for a premise that isn't even compelling to new readers (or to a fan like me).
    You say "big problems"... and talk about things that I see as trivial. Some of them are minor plot points that got discarded multiple continuity manglings ago.

    I feel the need to point out that the first comic book I ever read with Donna Troy in it was a Team Titans book... yes.... TEAM... not Teen. IIRC that story arc erased itself from continuity.. :P

  12. #3597
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    Donna is hardly the only sidekick who is drawn to resemble a person they aren't biologically related to.

    Also, the cosmic punching bag idea doesn't offer an explanation for that either.

  13. #3598
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Fine, this is my assembled pitch for the origin of Donna Troy.

    When Diana was still young, living in Themyscira, the Titan Thia (or someone else) grew to resent her as the most beloved creation of the lesser Olympian goddesses. Desperate to destroy the young child, she conjured a living nightmare to consume Diana and emotionally torture her for the rest of time. The Olympian goddesses (or someone else) couldn't stop or contain the creature, so in shame they created a magic clone for the beast to consume instead, this was Donna Troy. Donna had all of Diana's memories of a happy childhood with the amazons, but her day and night were spent living Diana's worst nightmares, over and over again. The fears and failures that Diana never experienced. Not the destruction of the world, not the death of all her peers, but of being unloved, unwanted, unworthy.

    Many years later, when Diana was a hero in Man's world she found out about Donna and through an epic saga managed to free her from the living nightmare. She bonded with Donna and tried to take care of her. Yada yada yada, Donna is brought to man's world and cared for by Diana's friends, she eventually forms the original Teen Titans. She starts a life in our world and through this overcomes her past as a cosmically bullied punching back and stops earning for the love and happiness that Diana experienced, because she herself gets that in the present. She becomes a hero.

    If you want a 2 sentence origin:
    Donna is a magic clone of Diana with all of her childhood memories, but who was raised inside a living nightmare. One day she escaped and started a life in our world while learning to overcome her abused past and come out stronger.
    Last edited by Alpha; 08-05-2021 at 11:41 PM.

  14. #3599
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    In some continuities most of the Amazons are adopted orphans.
    Wait what? What stories? I've never heard of this.

    Except when it's not....!
    In like 80% of the Wonder Woman books Diana has been written as the only child of the amazons. Donna Troy only appeared in 4 Wonder Woman stories pre crisis. Post Crisis Donna wasn't mentioned until the late 90s when Byrne revised her history. Then in 2011 she was taken out again and only appeared in the book during the Fingh run, but she still wasn't a child of the amazons. So Donna was only in Wonder Woman world for about 13 years (or less). For the rest of it Diana was the only child of the amazons.

    Nubia was the only other exception to the only child of the amazons thing, but she wasn't raised with the amazons, and she was only written in the 70s as Diana's sister.

    How is that weird if she leaves after Diana does? Hippolyta's reason for wanting Diana to not leave had nothing to do with Diana's age.
    Diana had to go through a contest as a fully developed woman in order to leave the island. Why is Donna allowed to leave when she is a teenager?

    And why does Donna even leave when she hasn't been in paradise for very long?

    Is this still canon? I know she is drawn looking very similar, but I'm not sure if having her appearance be identical is actually canon now.
    Dick Grayson is similar to Bruce, but they are still drawn pretty differently. Donna Troy looks EXACTLY like Diana (obviously because half of her origins say she was a magic clone/ younger version)
    Last edited by Alpha; 08-05-2021 at 04:39 PM.

  15. #3600
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I am Not Starfire gets a lot of unnecessary hate. From what I've heard from unbiased sources, the book was good despite the 'alienating premise'. I have to read it for myself eventually.
    I still don't understand why it received the hate it did.
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nonetheless):
    DC: Currently figuring that out
    Marvel: Read above
    Image: Killadelphia, Nightmare Blog
    Other: The Antagonist, Something is Killing the Children, Avatar: TLAB
    Manga: My Hero Academia, MHA: Vigilanties, Soul Eater: the Perfect Edition, Berserk, Hunter X Hunter, Witch Hat Atelier, Kaiju No. 8

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