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  1. #2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think Johns has more good runs than bad ones. Titans, Hawkman, JSA, Star Spangled Kid, Booster Gold, Green Lantern, Wally-Flash, Aquaman, etc.

    I'd include Shazam on that list too, though since he's not done it might be too early to really rate it. And I thought Doomsday Clock was actually one of the best things he's written despite the delays.

    Does Johns get credit for Vibe? He didn't write the book but it was his premise and concept.

    Johns' problem is he can't write the Trinity. And those characters are so big it makes his failure to write them seem bigger than it is. But I think if we made a list of all his work, far more of them would be in the "good" column than the "bad" one, and more than a few would likely be considered "great."
    I thought Johns TT run was terrible and set the stage for further damage under his successors.

  2. #2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The Superman line and mythos is now an even bigger disaster than it was prior to Flashpoint.
    I agree with this. I don't think Bendis is the right guy to write Superman and the Legion. And I never liked the inclusion of the son.

    I can understand Bendis not wanting to be typecast but he's a weird choice for those properties. There are plenty of characters around he would likely do much better with, like Green Arrow.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 06-02-2020 at 02:55 PM.

  3. #2013
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Come to think of it, I'm not a huge Johns fan either. I think Superman and the Legion deals in too much to the "Superman as a miserable lonely kid" thing, which I don't think really comes from anywhere prior to the pre-Flashpoint period, and I don't like that he goes right back to that same well in his New 52 Superman run, especially considering how much good Morrison had done to get rid of what he called "that weird emo Superman," guess Johns didn't get the memo... I don't like Batman: Earth One at all; I think it glorifies police brutality and guns, and makes Bruce look incompetent. I liked Green Lantern Secret Origin less than Emerald Dawn, as I already said, I don't much care for Flash Rebirth or Green Lantern Rebirth, partially because my favorite Flash was Wally and my favorite version of Hal was Parallax, hm, what else...
    I think Johns and Morrison had pretty similar takes on teen Clark as a more isolated and lonely kid, at least until the Legion show up.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Johns can be very hit and miss, but I think it ends up being more miss (or just "ok") the further into his career we go. His original Flash run with Wally is still my favorite thing by him, and his GL run is great through Blackest Night before it peters out. His return to the Flash with Barry isn't as good as the first time around, anything he does with the Trinity members tends to be mediocre or terrible like Infinite Crisis, and while I really liked Aquaman and Shazam, I think the movies ran with the concepts of his runs and pulled them off a bit better in some ways.
    I think his post-Blackest Night stuff was still solid even if the main thrust of the arc of his original run was done. Maybe it didn't reach the same height but I think the quality of the books and stories was still good even if it felt a little "post-script" at times, but his final issue was a pretty definitive and excellent final issue.

    I think his second Flash run was hampered by Rebirth and Flashpoint, but I think he was in the middle of setting a solid foundation for Barry as The Flash again.

    The movies drew so heavily from his run that I'm hard-pressed to say they improved on anything when they just took what was already in the book. Maybe it was better that they didn't make Aquaman an outright murderer of Black Manta's dad, and keeping Tom and Atlanna around was nice, but the Johns run still holds up really well. I prefer his characterization of Arthur, Orm, and Mera.

    I think Shazam honestly made Billy out to be even less heroic then he was in Johns' original story. But I think it was the right call making Sivana the first villain even if they had to do it because they couldn't use Black Adam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Hawkman isn't even getting a nod for turning 80, so it looks like longevity doesn't matter much if you're not on underwear and lunch boxes. Still, I love Michael Holt and I hope he keeps getting play across the DCU in years to come.
    I would think Hawkman would be on some underwear...
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I thought Johns TT run was terrible and set the stage for further damage under his successors.
    I honestly don't think the issues people have with the characterization in TT is as much of a problem or as damaging to the characters as made out to be...but I do understand the issue.

  4. #2014
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    I know some purists didn’t like his characterization of Billy for Shazam but it makes sense.

    For any hero’s story nowadays, the hero needs to go through character development.

    Having Billy be notoriously innocent and pure at the beginning and stay that way, is counter to having a good story with character development, and frankly laughable as to how kids are these days. Especially compared to how fiction had Billy act for readers in the 1940s.

  5. #2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I thought Johns TT run was terrible and set the stage for further damage under his successors.
    Johns‘s TT run is the ultimate “monkey’s paw” in terms of impact.

    It was set-horribly by the abysmal Graduation Day story because the starting pints he and DC envisioned for the characters demanded more angst and baggage than they had in YJ, he reworked several characters into a fashion that simply didn’t help them much when he left (Wondergirl basically lost most of her maturity and cult favorite qualities in favor of being another blonde flying brick dressed like a cheerleader, Superboy became blander, Kid Flash II is more boring than Impulse, he’s one of the people who insisted Beast Biy remain a boy, etc.), and some of the inability to follow up his run successful was because you had to thread the needle precisely with the characters and set-up, and they simply weren’t as flexible or resonant on the conceptual basis as they’d once been...

    ...But the first two years of his run hold together pretty well overall.

    Most of the issues with the title as a whole, and not just with his repackaging of the characters, came after Infinite Crisis - his instincts for dealing with the fallout from that were pretty abysmal themselves, and the back half of his run before he left makes the overall experience inferior to the predecessor series Young Justice.

    I think TT typifies what Johns’s average work is, as compared to his best and worst - it’s rarely going to be “drop the book *now*” bad, but sometimes when he tries to fix characters or properties, the result is more something that’s only really workable for him.
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  6. #2016
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I thought Johns TT run was terrible and set the stage for further damage under his successors.
    I wasn't a huge fan of it either, but I think most people would say it was good. It seems fairly popular at least.
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  7. #2017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The Superman line and mythos is now an even bigger disaster than it was prior to Flashpoint.
    I agree with this. Superman is hard to read through.

  8. #2018
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    The Teen Titans haven't been great since the '80s and the most successful run since was probably Johns, which itself is wildly divisive. Much like the JLI, the only way to really fix that team is to go completely left-field with it. No Robin leading the team or on it at all. No NTT characters on the roster. Do something fun, without the usual teen angst on TV. Just go a different path with it. It's only ever been a remix of the original formula and never hit the peak it did in the 80s. Time for something actually new, not throwing the same ingredients in a new bowl.

    Nora Fries getting revived and going crazy sucks. Have her actually feel remorse for everything Victor did to save her and-- rather than angrily abandon him-- have her be the one rehabilitating him. Make them a heroic duo trying to make amends in Gotham. I'm sure she'll eventually die or get refrozen and Victor will go mad, but it'd be nice to see them doing good for once. He's one of the few male supervillains I don't think it'd be too hard a sell to redeem.

    I can't stand when writers use Ollie as some unfaithful hypocrite. I realize that some of the runs in which that happens are acclaimed, but I never enjoy it.

    And now the one which will ensure I forever stay persona non grata: Jarro does nothing for me. He was a diminishing return each time and I'm over him.

    Darkseid needs to go to sleep for five-to-ten years. There's two threat levels in DC now. Lex/Joker and Darkseid. No in between. It's made the DCU a very shallow place. Put Darkseid to bed and really build him up again. He's the end boss of every DC story these days and I'm so tired of it.

    The Hawks deserve their own 80th special, and there are enough versions to make it a very robust book that can please all fans. Golden, Silver, Hawkworld, Johns or current? Maybe even the Justice League animated incarnation makes an appearance. Alas, it's not going to happen.

    Between DCeased and Injustice, I'm kind of over Tom Taylor at DC. If he gets to play a character straight in the future, perhaps I'll give his stuff a look again, but until then I'm not interested in his output at DC Comics thus far.

  9. #2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The Teen Titans haven't been great since the '80s and the most successful run since was probably Johns, which itself is wildly divisive. Much like the JLI, the only way to really fix that team is to go completely left-field with it. No Robin leading the team or on it at all. No NTT characters on the roster. Do something fun, without the usual teen angst on TV. Just go a different path with it. It's only ever been a remix of the original formula and never hit the peak it did in the 80s. Time for something actually new, not throwing the same ingredients in a new bowl.

    Nora Fries getting revived and going crazy sucks. Have her actually feel remorse for everything Victor did to save her and-- rather than angrily abandon him-- have her be the one rehabilitating him. Make them a heroic duo trying to make amends in Gotham. I'm sure she'll eventually die or get refrozen and Victor will go mad, but it'd be nice to see them doing good for once. He's one of the few male supervillains I don't think it'd be too hard a sell to redeem.

    I can't stand when writers use Ollie as some unfaithful hypocrite. I realize that some of the runs in which that happens are acclaimed, but I never enjoy it.

    And now the one which will ensure I forever stay persona non grata: Jarro does nothing for me. He was a diminishing return each time and I'm over him.

    Darkseid needs to go to sleep for five-to-ten years. There's two threat levels in DC now. Lex/Joker and Darkseid. No in between. It's made the DCU a very shallow place. Put Darkseid to bed and really build him up again. He's the end boss of every DC story these days and I'm so tired of it.

    The Hawks deserve their own 80th special, and there are enough versions to make it a very robust book that can please all fans. Golden, Silver, Hawkworld, Johns or current? Maybe even the Justice League animated incarnation makes an appearance. Alas, it's not going to happen.

    Between DCeased and Injustice, I'm kind of over Tom Taylor at DC. If he gets to play a character straight in the future, perhaps I'll give his stuff a look again, but until then I'm not interested in his output at DC Comics thus far.
    Lex and Joker should probably be given a break as well.

    If I were you, I'd avoid Taylor's Suicide Squad.

  10. #2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The Teen Titans haven't been great since the '80s and the most successful run since was probably Johns, which itself is wildly divisive. Much like the JLI, the only way to really fix that team is to go completely left-field with it. No Robin leading the team or on it at all. No NTT characters on the roster. Do something fun, without the usual teen angst on TV. Just go a different path with it. It's only ever been a remix of the original formula and never hit the peak it did in the 80s. Time for something actually new, not throwing the same ingredients in a new bowl.

    Nora Fries getting revived and going crazy sucks. Have her actually feel remorse for everything Victor did to save her and-- rather than angrily abandon him-- have her be the one rehabilitating him. Make them a heroic duo trying to make amends in Gotham. I'm sure she'll eventually die or get refrozen and Victor will go mad, but it'd be nice to see them doing good for once. He's one of the few male supervillains I don't think it'd be too hard a sell to redeem.

    I can't stand when writers use Ollie as some unfaithful hypocrite. I realize that some of the runs in which that happens are acclaimed, but I never enjoy it.

    And now the one which will ensure I forever stay persona non grata: Jarro does nothing for me. He was a diminishing return each time and I'm over him.

    Darkseid needs to go to sleep for five-to-ten years. There's two threat levels in DC now. Lex/Joker and Darkseid. No in between. It's made the DCU a very shallow place. Put Darkseid to bed and really build him up again. He's the end boss of every DC story these days and I'm so tired of it.

    The Hawks deserve their own 80th special, and there are enough versions to make it a very robust book that can please all fans. Golden, Silver, Hawkworld, Johns or current? Maybe even the Justice League animated incarnation makes an appearance. Alas, it's not going to happen.

    Between DCeased and Injustice, I'm kind of over Tom Taylor at DC. If he gets to play a character straight in the future, perhaps I'll give his stuff a look again, but until then I'm not interested in his output at DC Comics thus far.
    I think that current TT run was sort of left field with the roster(excluding Damian and Wallace), but was total garbage due to everything else in that storyline. TTGo left a bad taste in people's mouth, but a wackier and low stakes goofy run might be what the franchise needs in comics and would make it standout since DC seems determined to be 'dark and mature'.

  11. #2021
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The Teen Titans haven't been great since the '80s and the most successful run since was probably Johns, which itself is wildly divisive. Much like the JLI, the only way to really fix that team is to go completely left-field with it. No Robin leading the team or on it at all. No NTT characters on the roster. Do something fun, without the usual teen angst on TV. Just go a different path with it. It's only ever been a remix of the original formula and never hit the peak it did in the 80s. Time for something actually new, not throwing the same ingredients in a new bowl.

    Nora Fries getting revived and going crazy sucks. Have her actually feel remorse for everything Victor did to save her and-- rather than angrily abandon him-- have her be the one rehabilitating him. Make them a heroic duo trying to make amends in Gotham. I'm sure she'll eventually die or get refrozen and Victor will go mad, but it'd be nice to see them doing good for once. He's one of the few male supervillains I don't think it'd be too hard a sell to redeem.

    I can't stand when writers use Ollie as some unfaithful hypocrite. I realize that some of the runs in which that happens are acclaimed, but I never enjoy it.

    And now the one which will ensure I forever stay persona non grata: Jarro does nothing for me. He was a diminishing return each time and I'm over him.

    Darkseid needs to go to sleep for five-to-ten years. There's two threat levels in DC now. Lex/Joker and Darkseid. No in between. It's made the DCU a very shallow place. Put Darkseid to bed and really build him up again. He's the end boss of every DC story these days and I'm so tired of it.

    The Hawks deserve their own 80th special, and there are enough versions to make it a very robust book that can please all fans. Golden, Silver, Hawkworld, Johns or current? Maybe even the Justice League animated incarnation makes an appearance. Alas, it's not going to happen.

    Between DCeased and Injustice, I'm kind of over Tom Taylor at DC. If he gets to play a character straight in the future, perhaps I'll give his stuff a look again, but until then I'm not interested in his output at DC Comics thus far.
    Yeah, if you throw in Earth 2 I’ve kind of gotten sick of Taylor rehashing dystopian alternate world stories

  12. #2022
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I think that current TT run was sort of left field with the roster(excluding Damian and Wallace), but was total garbage due to everything else in that storyline. TTGo left a bad taste in people's mouth, but a wackier and low stakes goofy run might be what the franchise needs in comics and would make it standout since DC seems determined to be 'dark and mature'.
    What I've read of the Glass run (first two trades) seems pretty solid beyond the "kids distrusting and hating adults" thing.

    By TTGo!, we're talking about the cartoon, not the J. Torres comic adaption of the original cartoon, right?

  13. #2023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    What I've read of the Glass run (first two trades) seems pretty solid beyond the "kids distrusting and hating adults" thing.

    By TTGo!, we're talking about the cartoon, not the J. Torres comic adaption of the original cartoon, right?
    I'm talking about The TT Go cartoon. Comics shouldn't go full meme stupidity like the cartoon( though I'd probably prefer meme comedy over the constant stream of grimdark stories we've seen from DC comics recently)but the Titans/ TT franchise has been serious and dark for years without much success.

    Maybe going in the opposite direction would help.

  14. #2024
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I'm talking about The TT Go cartoon. Comics shouldn't go full meme stupidity like the cartoon( though I'd probably prefer meme comedy over the constant stream of grimdark stories we've seen from DC comics recently)but the Titans/ TT franchise has been serious and dark for years without much success.

    Maybe going in the opposite direction would help.
    I'd be fine with a lighter and more fun Teen Titans. I kinda felt like that was what Percy was going for pre-Lazarus Contract.

  15. #2025
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I'm talking about The TT Go cartoon. Comics shouldn't go full meme stupidity like the cartoon( though I'd probably prefer meme comedy over the constant stream of grimdark stories we've seen from DC comics recently)but the Titans/ TT franchise has been serious and dark for years without much success.

    Maybe going in the opposite direction would help.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dgmLYtDvAa4

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