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  1. #2356
    Been lurking since '08 Marik Swift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If that is the case, why is this argument being made for Diana and not Clark?

    Both Diana and Carol Danvers managed to get a successful movie without being depowered to street level. Clearly this is not a requirement to make a character popular. If it were, the Catwoman and Elektra movies would have been smash hits instead of convenient scape goats used to excuse not making female superhero movies for years.
    Superhero movies are big right now. Captain Marvel 15 years ago would have been a flop.

    If anything Diana is less Superman lite now than she was in the Golden Age when she had a secret identity that was a bespectacled, overlooked milquetoast like Clark and had a two person love triangle with Steve Trevor. If being a female Superman with a sword is hindering her, making her female Spider-Man with a lasso won't automatically improve her station. As if there aren't numerous street level characters that also fail to catch an audience. The only thing a powered up Diana has in common with Clark is being a flying brick which he doesn't have a patent on.
    You are literally listing all things the creator Marston came up with, so I hardly see your point?

    And who said anything about making her female Spiderman?

    And none of those street levelers is the most iconic heroine ever, hence their failure, and even then a lot of them do outsell her.

    I can read about a million flying bricks elsewhere.

    Also, they already did depower Diana once in the 60s. It wasn't well received back then and even the writer of that story arc looked back on it with embarrassment.
    Really going to sit here and pretend like them throwing her in a white jumpsuit had nothing to do with said failure?

  2. #2357
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Superhero movies are big right now. Captain Marvel 15 years ago would have been a flop.



    You are literally listing all things the creator Marston came up with, so I hardly see your point?

    And who said anything about making her female Spiderman?

    And none of those street levelers is the most iconic heroine ever, hence their failure, and even then a lot of them do outsell her.

    I can read about a million flying bricks elsewhere.



    Really going to sit here and pretend like them throwing her in a white jumpsuit had nothing to do with said failure?
    The white jumpsuit was a symptom of the general complaint against the whole concept of taking character created to be an empowerment figure/physical marvel into a street-level trend chaser.

  3. #2358
    Been lurking since '08 Marik Swift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Who is actually saying this and where? You're saying this as if it's a fact, when it isn't.
    Because when her IP is actually used well, like the movie, people turn up and don't draw the comparison. Even when the movie used glasses wearing Diana Prince, an ID that is a holdover from an attempt to make her more like him.
    Diana in the movie is nothing like in the comics though. The two are completely different characters.

    She has none of Diana's compassion; she can't fly & she is far weaker than Superman.

    And frankly, until WW84 comes out it remains to be seen whether the success of the first movie was just a fluke or not. Hell, it underperformed. Cause at the end of the day, as much as people like to say the "Marvel branding sells, not necessarily the characters", Captain Marvel still sold far more than other more credible Marvel movies. So yes, it wasn't a case of "Marvel brand outsold DCs brand", Captain Marvel's brand literally outsold Wonder Woman's brand.

  4. #2359
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    @mark swift I don't understand what you are arguing for here? You want ww or captain marvel to flop? I don't believe powerlevels largely dictate audience number or box office, if at all. As if ww sneezing away galaxies or not being able to pick up a truck dictate success. All that matters is engaging set pieces and story that's a crowd pleaser.

  5. #2360
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Diana in the movie is nothing like in the comics though. The two are completely different characters.

    She has none of Diana's compassion; she can't fly & she is far weaker than Superman.
    Have you read very many Wonder Woman comics? It's an adaptation, but saying she's nothing like Perez, Marston, Jimenez or Rucka's Dianas and a completely different character is pretty false hyperbole to those who have consumed all of the above.

    You're also not clarifying where this "people don't like her because she's female Superman" is coming from. It has no basis in fact. Her being a comparable power fantasy from a female perspective is the main reason she's an icon in the first place.

    Also by your logic, she's not like a female Superman in the movie, and yet it's still a fluke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    And frankly, until WW84 comes out it remains to be seen whether the success of the first movie was just a fluke or not. Hell, it underperformed. Cause at the end of the day, as much as people like to say the "Marvel branding sells, not necessarily the characters", Captain Marvel still sold far more than other more credible Marvel movies. So yes, it wasn't a case of "Marvel brand outsold DCs brand", Captain Marvel's brand literally outsold Wonder Woman's brand.
    This seems like a bad faith argument. Wonder Woman's success has to be dismissed as a fluke until proven otherwise?

    Much like Carol herself said, I don't think she had anything to prove. The other female character doing better doesn't mean both female characters didn't do well or that that isn't something to celebrate. Wonder Woman doing as well as she did gets points in her favor because she also had odds stacked against her: association with the critically toxic BvS and the unreliable DCEU brand and this being her first ever movie so she was unproven cinematically. And pressure on Jenkins that female directors couldn't do action movies if this didn't do well. Those are not things Carol had to deal with, though she had her own obstacles. She also had advantages Diana didn't (the branding matters, and tying into the Endgame build up) though that shouldn't also be everything the success is attributed to.

  6. #2361

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    It's been a while since I last saw the "female-led film adaptation that was a massive success financially was really just an incredible fluke" argument.

  7. #2362
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Diana in the movie is nothing like in the comics though. The two are completely different characters.

    She has none of Diana's compassion; she can't fly & she is far weaker than Superman.
    Sorry, you seem to be confusing the DCEU Wonder Woman with the DCAU version.

  8. #2363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    It's been a while since I last saw the "female-led film adaptation that was a massive success financially was really just an incredible fluke" argument.
    I don't think it's fair to call WW a fluke in the superhero movie era especially since Carol's was movie also successful.
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  9. #2364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marik Swift View Post
    Superhero movies are big right now. Captain Marvel 15 years ago would have been a flop.
    Superhero movies have been big before. Justice League came out last decade and is considered a flop.



    You are literally listing all things the creator Marston came up with, so I hardly see your point?
    If her original creator wasn't so concerned about her being Superman-lite, why is it a problem now? Especially when she has less in common with Superman now than she did before.

    And who said anything about making her female Spiderman?
    I used him as an example of a street leveler which you want her to be.

    And none of those street levelers is the most iconic heroine ever, hence their failure, and even then a lot of them do outsell her.
    Like who? And how many of these street levelers got a movie?

    I can read about a million flying bricks elsewhere.
    And I can read about a million street levelers elsewhere.

    Really going to sit here and pretend like them throwing her in a white jumpsuit had nothing to do with said failure?
    If that were the only issue the jumpsuit wouldn't have been the only thing they got rid of. There are multiple posts on why that story failed online.

  10. #2365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    It's been a while since I last saw the "female-led film adaptation that was a massive success financially was really just an incredible fluke" argument.
    I still see it quite often. Especially when Captain Marvel comes.

  11. #2366
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Have you read very many Wonder Woman comics? It's an adaptation, but saying she's nothing like Perez, Marston, Jimenez or Rucka's Dianas and a completely different character is pretty false hyperbole to those who have consumed all of the above.

    You're also not clarifying where this "people don't like her because she's female Superman" is coming from. It has no basis in fact. Her being a comparable power fantasy from a female perspective is the main reason she's an icon in the first place.

    Also by your logic, she's not like a female Superman in the movie, and yet it's still a fluke?



    This seems like a bad faith argument. Wonder Woman's success has to be dismissed as a fluke until proven otherwise?

    Much like Carol herself said, I don't think she had anything to prove. The other female character doing better doesn't mean both female characters didn't do well or that that isn't something to celebrate. Wonder Woman doing as well as she did gets points in her favor because she also had odds stacked against her: association with the critically toxic BvS and the unreliable DCEU brand and this being her first ever movie so she was unproven cinematically. And pressure on Jenkins that female directors couldn't do action movies if this didn't do well. Those are not things Carol had to deal with, though she had her own obstacles. She also had advantages Diana didn't (the branding matters, and tying into the Endgame build up) though that shouldn't also be everything the success is attributed to.
    Additionally, Carol had more in common with Superman in terms of power level in her movie so being Superman-lite didn't hurt her either.

  12. #2367
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Ok. Why is being a street leveler such buzz word? I mean, i would love for superman to go back to jump tall buildings in a single bound.Spiderman is'nt a street level character. He is mid-tier. He scales up and down depending on the powerup and the level of conflicts.

  13. #2368
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Ok. Why is being a street leveler such buzz word? I mean, i would love for superman to go back to jump tall buildings in a single bound.Spiderman is'nt a street level character. He is mid-tier. He scales up and down depending on the powerup and the level of conflicts.
    I think it's more because there is a call for Wonder Woman to be street level even if she never was (not even when all she was lacking was flight), but not the same outcry for Superman.

    I wouldn't want him regularly stripped down, but a movie that starts him out at Golden Age power levels would be pretty awesome

  14. #2369
    Kon-El "The Scion" SuperX's Avatar
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    Dianas thing is being the best warrior from a peaceful yet warrior ppl, and Clark's is being a God among us, who lives a normal life.

    I don't want her to be street level at all I want her a lil below superman in power so all thst warrior stuff is empathized and used to make her a superman level character threat without their levels of power.

    Aquaman is another character thst should be around thst power level, he is good with weapons and considered a good fighter also, judt not in her league, which is why him having more fishy telepathy abilities is OK Imo.

  15. #2370
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think it's more because there is a call for Wonder Woman to be street level even if she never was (not even when all she was lacking was flight), but not the same outcry for Superman.

    I wouldn't want him regularly stripped down, but a movie that starts him out at Golden Age power levels would be pretty awesome
    The thing about scifi action heroes as mentioned is escalation problem. Every hero goes through it. Even superman struggles with it. You need hero to go through a tougher tribulation than previously done. But, there seems to be an extent before it becomes absurd for the reader or audience . The powerscaling, i mean. Superman's hit its peak during silverage . But With superman, there is seems to be another problem. He loses his edge as a character with his mid-level power. He becomes a bit bland. Superman works best when he walks his dog past saturn or jumping and flipping around like a grass hopper on ground.

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