Page 139 of 148 FirstFirst ... 3989129135136137138139140141142143 ... LastLast
Results 2,071 to 2,085 of 2206
  1. #2071
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    51,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I felt bad for Conner in how Superman reacted to him, but I still found Superman sympathetic in that situation. Superman had been violated, having basically a child of his created without his consent. I would've loved to have seen that resolved a little more on screen.
    YJ brings such a great well developed world, it makes me wish there were room for a spin off series, such as the Justice League. Maybe as a prequel, go back to Year One.
    My problem was that while I understood Superman's reaction, his active attempts to bond with and get to know Conner were relegated to a tie-in comic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A lot of DC's Asian women characters fall very heavily into the "Dragon lady" stereotype. Then there are characters like Egg Fu which fans keep pushing for writers to use more and more despite everything about him screaming "typical Silver Age comics racism". Actually a lot of Wonder Woman's Golden and Silver Age writing when it comes to women and non-white people is viewed with rose-tinted glasses. Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One got praise from Golden Age WW fans for harkening back to that era despite those tropes being abandoned for good reasons.
    Examples? The only "dragon lady" in terms of characterization and dress I can think of is Roulette and I don't think she was actually Asian. Katana isn't like that, Dr. Light isn't like that, Cassandra Cain isn't like that...are you referring to Shiva? I don't think of Dr. Poison as a "dragon lady."

    Did you not think Egg Fu's update in 52 worked?
    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    If you're Greek, it's togas and Zues or you're a fisherman well pest his years. There's no in between.

    DC has never been particularly strong at portraying other cultures. It's very USA-centric.
    This is a wider media problem then just a DC problem. And I think they've gotten better about it.

  2. #2072
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    23,022

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    Examples?
    Shiva

    Chesire

    Talia

    Cass during the time she was a villain

    Shiv

    Shado

    Miss Fear

    Lynx


    Did you not think Egg Fu's update in 52 worked?
    N
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-06-2020 at 10:38 AM.

  3. #2073
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    51,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Shiva

    Chesire

    Talia

    Cass during the time she was a villain

    Shiv

    Shado

    Miss Fear

    Lynx
    Ah, okay I see. I guess I can see how their portrayals might be rooted in those stereotypes but I feel like they are all distinct and memorable characters in-spite of that.

    And obviously not all their Asian characters are depicted this way.

  4. #2074
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    23,022

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Ah, okay I see. I guess I can see how their portrayals might be rooted in those stereotypes but I feel like they are all distinct and memorable characters in-spite of that.

    And obviously not all their Asian characters are depicted this way.
    I think they can be when they aren't being written that way. There's a reason YJ didn't depict Cheshire in that manner and Cass's turn as a Dragon lady stereotype is understandably hated by fans.

  5. #2075
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Otherworld
    Posts
    2,880

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    i think there needs to be a character bible that must be studied for all writers. In that bible needs to be written as the first rule of Shazam: Is no longer able to be defeated by superman. (so either you have him beat supes OR you leave him tf alone AND make them team up like you should do).
    I love the thought of character bibles, but Shazam is one of those characters thrived on a different world. It always felt like an event whenever they’d have a crossover. My favorite Shazam story is DC Comics Presents Annual 3, with Gil Kane on art. Beautiful art, fun, kitschy story.
    Last edited by Shadowcat; 06-06-2020 at 04:35 PM.
    Marvel Pull List Ranked
    :Captain Marvel:Guardians of the Galaxy:Immortal Hulk:
    :Black Cat:New Mutants:Fantastic Four:Thoraredevil:
    :Captain America:Excalibur:Iron Man:X-Force:Black Panther:
    :Avengers:Marauders:Ghost Rider: Dr. Strange:Valkyrie:
    (Just released, or to be released)
    Spider-Woman*Hellions*Black Widow*Wolverine*Cable*X-Factor

  6. #2076
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    51,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I think they can be when they aren't being written that way. There's a reason YJ didn't depict Cheshire in that manner and Cass's turn as a Dragon lady stereotype is understandably hated by fans.
    I don't think Cheshire in YJ is all that different from the comic version save for not being as vicious or uncaring as she is in the comics, but I think she's still pretty much the same character.

    Cass' thing is so OOC that I don't think it bares even considering.

  7. #2077
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    23,022

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think Cheshire in YJ is all that different from the comic version save for not being as vicious or uncaring as she is in the comics, but I think she's still pretty much the same character.
    I'd say the difference between the two versions is very large. She actually cares about Roy and her family, she isn't a genocidere and the only male character she flirts with is the guy she is actually attracted while comic Cheshire is the poster girl for "sexualized, vampish, Asian femme fatale".
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-06-2020 at 01:18 PM.

  8. #2078
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    51,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd say the difference between the two versions is very large. She actually cares about Roy and her family, she isn't a genocidere and the only male character she flirts with is the guy she is actually attracted while comic Cheshire is the poster girl for "sexualized, vampish, Asian femme fatale".
    There were times when she has been shown to actually care about her family in the comics. She hasn't committed genocide like the comic version did, but she's still a dangerous criminal.

    She was basically a femme fatale for Roy before they got married. And even then...

  9. #2079
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think Cheshire in YJ is all that different from the comic version save for not being as vicious or uncaring as she is in the comics, but I think she's still pretty much the same character.

    Cass' thing is so OOC that I don't think it bares even considering.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd say the difference between the two versions is very large. She actually cares about Roy and her family, she isn't a genocidere and the only male character she flirts with is the guy she is actually attracted while comic Cheshire is the poster girl for "sexualized, vampish, Asian femme fatale".
    I think the difference between the two comes down to this:

    Original Comic Cheshire was designed to be the murderous terrorist supervillain Roy Harper made mistakes with and who wound up as his “baby mama.”

    Young Justice Cartoon Cheshire was designed to be the anti-villain and still caring sister to a dyed-in-the-wool heroic character in Artemis who also had a largely positive relationship with Red Arrow.

    The difference in priorities and purposes behind the character heavily modified their evolution.

    Comic Cheshire used nukes and has betrayed and backstabbed numerous people on panel, and has very few people who supported her original incarnation’s relationship with Roy, or think that she should have seen her daughter much, if at all. She doesn’t really have much of a fanbase, because she’s juts a villain, and isn’t really even that deep of a character.

    Cartoon Cheshire is an assassin who assassinates remarkably few people on screen (has she even killed anyone yet?) despite her best efforts, is marked by loyalty to her sister above her father and his associates, can trigger heartbreak among fans when she believes she cant’ be with Roy, and seems to have been an ax element mother for quite some time before her relapse into a lighter form of villainy where she seems to still have higher standards than her employers and father.

    There’s a definitive difference in his Greg Weisman wants you to view Cheshire vs how Wolfman, Simone, and others wanted you to view Cheshire.

    It’s remarkable how important her not being (anywhere even near) “as” vicious or uncaring as the comic version can change the character.

    It’s almost like a reverse and arguably much more radical version of the situation between Talia Al Ghul written by Denny O’Neill and Grant Morrison - people already feel that change is maybe a bit too drastic even though Talia was generally cool with her dad’s plans, largely because Morrison’s take seems incapable of being someone Bruce actually fell for, or who could turn him back from his self-imposed exile at the start of No Man’s Land. Cheshire in Young Justice (and somewhat in the New 52 incarnation of her that showed up in RHATO) is having edges filed off and being rewritten to fit more with the idea of being someone Roy could actually fall for in a healthy(-ish) way, with the result being a more “fun” and much less loathsome character.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  10. #2080
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,813

    Default

    Bruce falling for Talia has always been a little weird even before Morrison tbh. I know Bruce likes the "bad girls," but I can understand what draws him to Selina and Andrea (at least *before* she became the Phantasm) whereas I never understood why Talia's whole "Beloved!" deal would draw him in.

  11. #2081
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    716

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Bruce falling for Talia has always been a little weird even before Morrison tbh. I know Bruce likes the "bad girls," but I can understand what draws him to Selina and Andrea (at least *before* she became the Phantasm) whereas I never understood why Talia's whole "Beloved!" deal would draw him in.
    Yeah, I think it's a needless holdover from when Batman was aping the Bond films.

  12. #2082
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    51,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Comic Cheshire used nukes and has betrayed and backstabbed numerous people on panel, and has very few people who supported her original incarnation’s relationship with Roy, or think that she should have seen her daughter much, if at all. She doesn’t really have much of a fanbase, because she’s juts a villain, and isn’t really even that deep of a character.
    I always thought she was popular as far as DC female villains go. Maybe that was just re-approprating her popularity from her cartoon incarnation.
    Cartoon Cheshire is an assassin who assassinates remarkably few people on screen (has she even killed anyone yet?) despite her best efforts, is marked by loyalty to her sister above her father and his associates, can trigger heartbreak among fans when she believes she cant’ be with Roy, and seems to have been an ax element mother for quite some time before her relapse into a lighter form of villainy where she seems to still have higher standards than her employers and father.
    I think that's a holdover from when the show was still meant for kids and they couldn't show any on-screen deaths...not that she killed anyone in Outsiders, but that's besides the point in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Bruce falling for Talia has always been a little weird even before Morrison tbh. I know Bruce likes the "bad girls," but I can understand what draws him to Selina and Andrea (at least *before* she became the Phantasm) whereas I never understood why Talia's whole "Beloved!" deal would draw him in.
    She's a beautiful, capable, woman with strong ideals (that sometimes run counter to her father) but on the wrong side of the law, seems absolutely devoted to him, and wears a catsuit...I can see it.

  13. #2083
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,813

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    She's a beautiful, capable, woman with strong ideals (that sometimes run counter to her father) but on the wrong side of the law, seems absolutely devoted to him, and wears a catsuit...I can see it.
    Yeah but there are other times when the ideals do not run counter to her father and she is at least passively on board with the whole "wipe out most of the world's population" thing. And the last two seem like pretty shallow reasons, I would think the rest of the package would outweigh them.

    Even in the bronze age, Dick Grayson was like "their opening salvo was kidnapping me from my dorm room to test you into being worthy, what the f*** are you even doing?". Morrison's take seemed like the inevitable instance of "reality ensues."

  14. #2084
    Boisterously Confused
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,833

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Bruce falling for Talia has always been a little weird even before Morrison tbh. I know Bruce likes the "bad girls," but I can understand what draws him to Selina and Andrea (at least *before* she became the Phantasm) whereas I never understood why Talia's whole "Beloved!" deal would draw him in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, I think it's a needless holdover from when Batman was aping the Bond films.
    It's not everybody's experience, but many of us have been beguiled by a woman we just knew was bad news, no matter how hopeless the situation.

    Ultimately, for better or worse, Talia is an integral part of the Batman lore.

  15. #2085
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I always thought she was popular as far as DC female villains go. Maybe that was just re-approprating her popularity from her cartoon incarnation.

    I think that's a holdover from when the show was still meant for kids and they couldn't show any on-screen deaths...not that she killed anyone in Outsiders, but that's besides the point in my opinion.

    She's a beautiful, capable, woman with strong ideals (that sometimes run counter to her father) but on the wrong side of the law, seems absolutely devoted to him, and wears a catsuit...I can see it.
    I actually think we didn’t see Cheshire kill anyone in Season One in part because we were meant to eventually find her someone we could accept Artemis letting go and who”s relationship was important, and Roy falling for her - I think only her first appearances features her acting as an assassin who’s goal is to actually kill someone, and by her second she’d part of the giant sleight-of-hand the Light was pulling with Lex and Ra’s to cover for debriefing Red Arrow, and then her next major appearance is the ambush of the Team, with her saving her sister, before later abandoning Sportsmaster when Artemis and the others use their attempted recruitment to ambush their recruiters.

    At the end of the day, I think Cheshire in Young Justice is defined far more as Artemis’s sister and Roy’s wife/girlfriend than she is as a villain... which is replacing mostly antagonistic functions with quite a bit more supporting cast functions. And that does create a new character in a lot of ways.

    With Talia, I think part of the weird thing is that Denny O’Neill and DC as a whole seemed to change their mind to a while and try more clearly redeeming Talia after the Legacy story in Batman - they had her abandon her father, become LexCorps leader and then dissolve it when Bruce requested it, and even before that had her get Bruce back in action to go to No Man’s Land. Then, when they decided to change her back, they felt they had to have Nyssa torture her, kill her, and repeat until she was brainwashed back into evil... and then Morrison came in and used that “they were always a villain from an awesome pantomime” card on her.

    So I think the issue people have with Talia is the lack of consistency in how evil she is and why she’s evil and attractive to Batman, with some feeling that we’re missing what could be a heartbreaking story that would flow from more consistency and nuance. For a comparison, I think there’s a feeling she could be a character like Demona from Gargoyles - absolutely monstrous now, but someone the audience can understand, regret for her devolution into villainy, and be fascinated by.

    Though I do want to use this comment about Cheshire to make a point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    There were times when she has been shown to actually care about her family in the comics. She hasn't committed genocide like the comic version did, but she's still a dangerous criminal.

    She was basically a femme fatale for Roy before they got married. And even then...
    Removing the genocide from Chesire’s past is soemthing that I think massively changes the character and the context of her relationship with Roy... in the same way Talia’s connection to her fathers genocidal plans always undermined the more sympathetic intents for the character.

    Genocide and mass murder in general is such an over the top monstrosity of a crime that it’s really, really hard to portray someone as a plausible romance issue at that point, or to have a character get fans either. I mean, I fundamentally rejected *everything* about The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker’s ideas for Kylo Ren and Rey crushing on him because he’s basically a school shooter Neo-Nazi who committed mass murder in his first scene, and she doesn’t have any previous tie to him to explain their writing; in that case, the monstrosity of the badguy hurt the characterization of the hero by begging the question of how they could be so shallow and blind.

    And I think that’s ultimately part of the reason for Morrison just treating Talia as the Ex from Hell And it working in a holistic sense , but also why some fans just find that bluntness off-putting. Removing the ambiguity about her nature means looking at her time with Bruce and and finding *him* shallow and stupid, and to a degree that doesn’t neccessarily work.

    (For the record, I like Talia as the bad guy, and generally agree with Morrison... but I feel that there should be a period before she accepted genocide, where she and Bruce could fall for each other and conceive Damian, and *then* she goes evil, so that there’s some maturity and evolution there that causes heartache with Batman.)
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •