Page 305 of 332 FirstFirst ... 205255295301302303304305306307308309315 ... LastLast
Results 4,561 to 4,575 of 4968
  1. #4561
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    8,222

    Default

    I guess Dick and Damian made "Batman & Robin" a thing because before that DC never published such ongoing. Or maybe DC just didn't feel like publishing such book for one reason or another.

    You'd probably have a stronger case if before Tim there existed at least one or two Robin ongoings featuring Jason or Dick and they got cancelled after 7 issues due to bad sales.

  2. #4562
    Mighty Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Porto Alegre, Brasil
    Posts
    1,076

    Default

    I like to think in Rose being Nightwing after Dick, it would be Slade's biggest defeat.

  3. #4563
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    29,974

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I guess Dick and Damian made "Batman & Robin" a thing because before that DC never published such ongoing. Or maybe DC just didn't feel like publishing such book for one reason or another.
    Back during the Gold and Silver Ages, the stories in Batman and Detective Comics were essentially "Batman and Robin". So there wasn't a need for a book titled "Batman and Robin".

  4. #4564
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    3,731

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Felipe Silveira View Post
    I like to think in Rose being Nightwing after Dick, it would be Slade's biggest defeat.
    I feel like Slade's biggest defeat would be death at the hands of Terra or Rose.

  5. #4565
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    29,974

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I feel like Slade's biggest defeat would be death at the hands of Terra or Rose.
    Not at the hands of Ambush Bug?

  6. #4566
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Why are some so desperate to give Tim/every character a claim to fame?
    Tim being able to prove that the role could carry it's own book long term doesn't mean much when it comes with an asterix.
    Sounds like I'm not the one with a bias here. And who said anything about "everyone" needing a claim to fame? Hel, how is saying Tim showed that Robin could carry a solo even a claim to fame? It's not, and I'm confused why you're acting like folks are proclaiming Tim the greatest work of fiction to ever exist.

    Dick showed/proved that Robin as a solo hero has value not just in comics
    Huh. I must have missed his big successful solo run in the very first "Robin" title then. Or was it a "Robin" tv show that I missed?

    And who's arguing that the value of Robin started with Tim? Nobody. But when you talk solo title? No Robin had one before Tim. Dick's Golden Age features don't, IMO, count as a solo book. Obviously Robin was a global icon before the people who invented Tim Drake were even born. But while Dick proved that Robin could work great as a sidekick, a team leader/member, with or without Batman, and as a feature in anthologies, he was never given the opportunity to prove himself with a solo Robin title.

    I suspect you saw the posts saying "Tim proved Robin could carry a solo" and somehow thought it meant "The only Robin that ever mattered is Tim and everyone else sucks, especially Dick Grayson!"

    The irony of the statement that Tim is the best Robin is that Tim is the only male Robin that Dc/WB hasn't had the confidence to showcase canon accurate in outside media.
    When did larger media get brought into this? But that's a non-starter. Larger media cherry picks what they want from across all the Robins. Dick in Young Justice has Tim's computer skills and staff. The dead Robin in BvS was Dick, not Jason. The Robin in Teen Titans GO is Dick, but wears Tim's suit, uses his weapon, and otherwise bears no real resemblance to any of the Robins in the comics. One of the cartoons that used Tim gave him, I think, Jason's origin (could be wrong?).

    The only exception currently is Damian. He's largely treated as his own individual character and adaptations haven't made too many changes to him. But all the others get mashed together depending on what the story wants.

    Tim fans can still enjoy Tim without having to go to ridiculous lengths to Jedi mind trick others that he is special/the best.
    And us Dick fans can still enjoy Nightwing without tearing down anyone else who ever used the name he built.

    Seems like you got an axe to grind with Tim, and I get that. DC ruined that character. But his first stint as Robin, before DC totally wrecked him? Yeah, those were better solo stories than what Dick got as Robin. In my opinion, obviously, I won't hate on the folks who think those Golden Age features were better written or had more depth or character development. Dick is infinitely more important a character and a better character in general, but as far as careers as Robin go? Dick's had some amazing flashback tales, especially lately in stuff like Waid's World's Finest, Yang's Superman-Batman, and Lemire's Robin & Batman. But the original source material? Tim's stuff as Robin is better.

    Between the two, Dick is obviously superior. So why is it so hard to say "Yeah, the first Robin solo was Tim, and he carried it for years and proved 'Robin' could carry a title"? That's just the facts.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  7. #4567
    Mighty Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Porto Alegre, Brasil
    Posts
    1,076

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I feel like Slade's biggest defeat would be death at the hands of Terra or Rose.
    Slade isn't afraid to die, that wouldn't take Rose out of the death path Slade put her on. He would die smiling.

  8. #4568
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Sounds like I'm not the one with a bias here. And who said anything about "everyone" needing a claim to fame? Hel, how is saying Tim showed that Robin could carry a solo even a claim to fame? It's not, and I'm confused why you're acting like folks are proclaiming Tim the greatest work of fiction to ever exist.



    Huh. I must have missed his big successful solo run in the very first "Robin" title then. Or was it a "Robin" tv show that I missed?

    And who's arguing that the value of Robin started with Tim? Nobody. But when you talk solo title? No Robin had one before Tim. Dick's Golden Age features don't, IMO, count as a solo book. Obviously Robin was a global icon before the people who invented Tim Drake were even born. But while Dick proved that Robin could work great as a sidekick, a team leader/member, with or without Batman, and as a feature in anthologies, he was never given the opportunity to prove himself with a solo Robin title.

    I suspect you saw the posts saying "Tim proved Robin could carry a solo" and somehow thought it meant "The only Robin that ever mattered is Tim and everyone else sucks, especially Dick Grayson!"



    When did larger media get brought into this? But that's a non-starter. Larger media cherry picks what they want from across all the Robins. Dick in Young Justice has Tim's computer skills and staff. The dead Robin in BvS was Dick, not Jason. The Robin in Teen Titans GO is Dick, but wears Tim's suit, uses his weapon, and otherwise bears no real resemblance to any of the Robins in the comics. One of the cartoons that used Tim gave him, I think, Jason's origin (could be wrong?).

    The only exception currently is Damian. He's largely treated as his own individual character and adaptations haven't made too many changes to him. But all the others get mashed together depending on what the story wants.



    And us Dick fans can still enjoy Nightwing without tearing down anyone else who ever used the name he built.

    Seems like you got an axe to grind with Tim, and I get that. DC ruined that character. But his first stint as Robin, before DC totally wrecked him? Yeah, those were better solo stories than what Dick got as Robin. In my opinion, obviously, I won't hate on the folks who think those Golden Age features were better written or had more depth or character development. Dick is infinitely more important a character and a better character in general, but as far as careers as Robin go? Dick's had some amazing flashback tales, especially lately in stuff like Waid's World's Finest, Yang's Superman-Batman, and Lemire's Robin & Batman. But the original source material? Tim's stuff as Robin is better.

    Between the two, Dick is obviously superior. So why is it so hard to say "Yeah, the first Robin solo was Tim, and he carried it for years and proved 'Robin' could carry a title"? That's just the facts.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  9. #4569

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    TBF, that costume was designed by Neal Adams with Dick in mind, not Tim, so I wouldn't necessarily say that's an example of Tim being influential. Since it was designed for Dick and Dick used it in wider reaching media (BTAS and Batman Forever), I'd say he has equal claim to the costume, if not a stronger one.

    TNBA Tim was also originally going to be Jason. He pretty much still is in all but name, DC had the producers call him Tim Drake to line up with then-current comics. It's why over in STAS, Green Lantern has brown hair and is given his ring by Abin-Sur, but he's named Kyle instead of Hal. So in some sense, Jason has a bit of a claim to Tim's other iconic costume
    I don't think it takes away from Tim. True, Adams may have initially designed it with Dick in mind but the latter went on to become Nightwing and Jason wore the green panty suit for a while. Tim was the one who made a splash with the modern Robin suit that was later adapted for Dick and Jason.

    The excerpts from the Denny O'Neil's 'Batman Bible' which the writers referred to in the 90's gave us a peek of how they viewed character and it's pretty clear that they thought of Tim as the modern Robin and Dick's Robin as the outdated concept.

    The CBR Community Guidelines & Rules
    | Report but also PM me directly

  10. #4570
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,959

    Default

    I mean, I'm really not getting the arguments about the Robins here. They're all great in their own way.

    Except for Damien. There will never be a time he doesn't suck.

    Sorry. Just couldn't resist.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  11. #4571
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    10,985

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Sounds like I'm not the one with a bias here. And who said anything about "everyone" needing a claim to fame? Hel, how is saying Tim showed that Robin could carry a solo even a claim to fame? It's not, and I'm confused why you're acting like folks are proclaiming Tim the greatest work of fiction to ever exist.



    Huh. I must have missed his big successful solo run in the very first "Robin" title then. Or was it a "Robin" tv show that I missed?

    And who's arguing that the value of Robin started with Tim? Nobody. But when you talk solo title? No Robin had one before Tim. Dick's Golden Age features don't, IMO, count as a solo book. Obviously Robin was a global icon before the people who invented Tim Drake were even born. But while Dick proved that Robin could work great as a sidekick, a team leader/member, with or without Batman, and as a feature in anthologies, he was never given the opportunity to prove himself with a solo Robin title.

    I suspect you saw the posts saying "Tim proved Robin could carry a solo" and somehow thought it meant "The only Robin that ever mattered is Tim and everyone else sucks, especially Dick Grayson!"



    When did larger media get brought into this? But that's a non-starter. Larger media cherry picks what they want from across all the Robins. Dick in Young Justice has Tim's computer skills and staff. The dead Robin in BvS was Dick, not Jason. The Robin in Teen Titans GO is Dick, but wears Tim's suit, uses his weapon, and otherwise bears no real resemblance to any of the Robins in the comics. One of the cartoons that used Tim gave him, I think, Jason's origin (could be wrong?).

    The only exception currently is Damian. He's largely treated as his own individual character and adaptations haven't made too many changes to him. But all the others get mashed together depending on what the story wants.



    And us Dick fans can still enjoy Nightwing without tearing down anyone else who ever used the name he built.

    Seems like you got an axe to grind with Tim, and I get that. DC ruined that character. But his first stint as Robin, before DC totally wrecked him? Yeah, those were better solo stories than what Dick got as Robin. In my opinion, obviously, I won't hate on the folks who think those Golden Age features were better written or had more depth or character development. Dick is infinitely more important a character and a better character in general, but as far as careers as Robin go? Dick's had some amazing flashback tales, especially lately in stuff like Waid's World's Finest, Yang's Superman-Batman, and Lemire's Robin & Batman. But the original source material? Tim's stuff as Robin is better.

    Between the two, Dick is obviously superior. So why is it so hard to say "Yeah, the first Robin solo was Tim, and he carried it for years and proved 'Robin' could carry a title"? That's just the facts.
    Mate you are the one that made the statement that Tim's only claim to fame is proving that Robin could carry a solo Did you forget?

    What are we doing here?

    I don't have an axe to grind and no you suspect wrong. I don't think that people who say Tim had the solo series means that everyone else sucks. Kind of arrogant to make all these assumptions about me while forgetting your own posts.
    Last edited by dietrich; 08-10-2022 at 02:36 PM.

  12. #4572
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    10,985

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm aware of that, yeah, and of the fact that Dick appeared more in the Golden Age than Bruce.

    I don't undersell Dick at all. He's my second favorite character in DC. And obviously you can't underestimate the importance of the character in the medium, he was the first Robin, the first sidekick, and blew open the doors for those PoV audience insert characters. He changed the trajectory of the Batman franchise forever. His transition to Nightwing also, IMO, marked an important shift in the industry, making it okay for characters to grow up and change in drastic ways. Comics as a whole owe a massive debt to Dick Grayson. But Dick's Golden Age solo *feature* is not, in my opinion, the same as a solo *title* with his name on the cover, and the semantics of that aside? It lasted a relatively short time, by the standards of the age, did damn little overall to remove "Robin" from the moniker of "Batman and...." and DC never made a solo attempt again until Tim.

    I don't undervalue Dick at all, but perhaps people don't give Tim as much value as he should get. Golden Age DC briefly toyed with the idea of Robin as a solo star, but that's all they did; toy with the idea. Tim is the Robin that proved the concept was viable and sustainable. Damian wouldn't have his Robin title right now if not for the success of Tim's solo.

    And recognizing that is not belittling Dick Grayson. In the grand scheme of things Dick Grayson is one of the five most important superheroes in history (not just DC, across the medium), Tim's only real claim to fame is that he was able to prove the role could carry its own book long-term.
    Reminder. See bolded.

  13. #4573
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I don't think it takes away from Tim. True, Adams may have initially designed it with Dick in mind but the latter went on to become Nightwing and Jason wore the green panty suit for a while. Tim was the one who made a splash with the modern Robin suit that was later adapted for Dick and Jason..
    All too true. Tim was the one who made it famous.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  14. #4574
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Reminder. See bolded.
    Ha! You got me on that one. Perhaps I should have said "achievement" instead. And Tim did hold down that book for quite a while, longer than his peers and a lot of other characters too. Definitely respectable, I think.

    Anyway, hey here's a controversial opinion.

    DC clearly has no idea what to do with the Young Justice generation. Tim, Conner, Bart, Cassie, Courtney (not team YJ, but same age, created in the same era, similar effort from DC, etc)....DC often treated these guys as if they were the quasi-official heirs apparent to the mantles of the League. The Titans had grown into their own thing, so Conner, Tim, etc., were all clearly pointed at taking over for their mentors in a future we'll never reach. So clearly, in fact, that DC loved subverting that expectation, and did "the future YJ is evil!" stories on more than one occasion. I felt it had become YJ's version of the Titans' "betrayed from within!" troupe.

    Then the YJ gen started going off the rails around Infinite Crisis, fans started losing interest, and it spiraled downward. Now we got Damian and Jon and Kaldur and Yara and Emiko and whoever the hell else, some of whom have already taken over the mentor's mantles, and nobody knows what to do with YJ. DC isn't interested, fans aren't satisfied by the reunions we've gotten, they're just old favorites from fans who got reading in the 90's, with just enough value and fanbase to keep, but not enough to be any kind of priority.

    And reading that awful Dark Crisis tie-in it really shocks me just how much the characters within universe don't give a **** about them. These kids have suffered and literally died in the name of people who largely just do not care, often because they have "real" kids to give the crowns to now. Maybe it's time for a lot, for some, of these YJ kids to say screw it, we're gonna do things our way, and break bad. Not "Joker" bad, but maybe "Black Adam when he's not feeling especially friendly" bad? I dunno, it's not an idea I really buy into, but I thought it was just interesting enough to toss out here and see what y'all think. I love this generation, but let's be real; they lost their shine a long time ago and can't go back to their old roles and positions. Reunions don't seem to be working any more than they do for the Titans, none of us have been satisfied with the latest attempts right? I think I enjoyed Bendis' YJ more than most and even I thought it only had its moments. So maybe these kids should do what some of their future selves have done, and decide to get serious about saving the world no matter how ugly and bloody it has to get?

    Black Zero. Savior. Titans of Tomorrow. Normal Cassie in New52. There's in-canon precedence, sorta. It'd rub some of that "WildStorm" moral gray into the DCU, but using characters who actually fit the narrative. If nothing else it'd be a chance to do something interesting with these guys again.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #4575
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    10,650

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Not at the hands of Ambush Bug?
    I was thinking Sportsmaster. In the Young Justice show especially.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •