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  1. #2176
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I feel like DC is reluctant to push Black Lightning because they're afraid of offending their more conservative fans.Removing his daughters doesn't help either.
    This seems counterproductive, especially when his show has those elements.

  2. #2177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    This seems counterproductive, especially when his show has those elements.
    It is counterproductive. I appreciate that DC is using him in Outsiders, but the current version of Black Lightning feels so watered down.

  3. #2178
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I loved Cyborg in TNTT 40 years ago. Honestly, I think DC missed his window nearly 30 years ago, when the NTT were losing steam. A better Man Of Tomorrow character for these times is probably Mr. Terrific. We need not consign Cyborg to the junkheap, I do not even say there's no path to the A-List for him, but I think his road would be harder than MT's.
    Well, in terms of design, classic Cyborg is probably one of the comics' worst... like ever. I'm not even exaggerating. To me that design pretty much is the representation of the statement "everything wrong with the comics". Not that I think "junkheap" is a real solution, but in contrast, it is an improvement. I'd say ditch the whole outdated design altogether. He's fused with a damn Mother Box. Nanotechnology should've been mastered by him like yesteryear. And with that him completely ditching the chunky look to a sleek "neoborg" that can morph his limbs into whatever weapon at will and only gets "armored" when needed.
    Something with this line of thought:
    (base)
    andre-gemineye-rogers-selfportrait-cyborg.jpg
    (combat form)
    b8e3440d60cdefbf02765810b83dbb16.jpg
    Give him a red DBZ like Scouter to honor the classic look and... IMO, perfect rebranding right there.

  4. #2179
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    It is counterproductive. I appreciate that DC is using him in Outsiders, but the current version of Black Lightning feels so watered down.
    Of course he is.

    When you are pandering to certain fandom who would throw fits if you didn't water him down or take elements from the show.

    When Tony complained about the Outsiders-we saw some folsk including store owners rip Tony's book and defend Hill's version. With one store screaming nobody bought YOUR book Tony. Which is funny since the trade had zero issues finding an audience and outselling Hill's Outsiders trade.

    Dc is so scared of offending that vocal minority that we see this brick wall that not jsut BL hits but Cyborg as well. As if Cyborg being more popualr that Harley or Batman is doomsday.

    Meanwhile at the House of Mouse the world did not end with Black Panther and Miles Morales films winning Oscars. Carol Danvers making a billion. The checks at Marvel still cleared.

    Dc has to get to that point. You can A list talent Hal, Bruce, WW and others all you like but that doesn't help Cyborg.

    Folks keep seeing better version of Cyborg outside of comics. Which mean even if someone asked for more-can't give it to them because that version can't be found in comics. Money lost.

  5. #2180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Mr. Terrific is perhaps better positioned to make the A-list than Vic; he's got a logo, a established design, and he avoids many of the problems Vic has with the "emasculated black man" stuff, but I don't think he represents the "man of tomorrow" archetype better.

    I love Terrific, he's a great character and it seems like he's constantly moving up my list of favorites. But in the end he's just another smart dude who uses technology, little different from Mr. Fantastic, Batman, Iron Man, and a host of other characters who all basically do the same thing Holt does. There's not much you can't do with Holt, and The Terrifics show just how versatile his character is. But he doesn't really offer anything a dozen other more popular characters don't. Now, don't get me wrong, I support Holt and I want to see him be a big deal, I want his logo on t-shirts, I want, I dunno, little plushy t-spheres I can buy for my kids, I want cartoons and solo comics and I want Holt to be a big deal.

    But Vic is something else. Vic *is* technology, and represents the fusion of man and machine that we're seeing in the world. From pace makers to prosthetic limbs to the brain implants people are starting to experiment with, Vic speaks to all of this in a way Holt simply doesn't. Hell, just people being stuck on their phones all day speaks to Vic and the man-machine fusion more than anyone else. And if DC treated Vic the way the larger media adaptations do, he'd already be considered A-list.

    If DC could pull their heads out of their asses and stop cycling Vic through his "woe is me I'm a freak" attitude, Cyborg could easily and quickly become a big deal, who comments on modern society and the role of technology in our lives in a way nobody else can. Not to mention he offers some representation for the physically handicapped (comic book representation so his disability isn't really a disability but still) and that's something not many offer.
    Yes and yes!

  6. #2181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Mr. Terrific is perhaps better positioned to make the A-list than Vic; he's got a logo, a established design, and he avoids many of the problems Vic has with the "emasculated black man" stuff, but I don't think he represents the "man of tomorrow" archetype better.

    I love Terrific, he's a great character and it seems like he's constantly moving up my list of favorites. But in the end he's just another smart dude who uses technology, little different from Mr. Fantastic, Batman, Iron Man, and a host of other characters who all basically do the same thing Holt does. There's not much you can't do with Holt, and The Terrifics show just how versatile his character is. But he doesn't really offer anything a dozen other more popular characters don't. Now, don't get me wrong, I support Holt and I want to see him be a big deal, I want his logo on t-shirts, I want, I dunno, little plushy t-spheres I can buy for my kids, I want cartoons and solo comics and I want Holt to be a big deal.

    But Vic is something else. Vic *is* technology, and represents the fusion of man and machine that we're seeing in the world. From pace makers to prosthetic limbs to the brain implants people are starting to experiment with, Vic speaks to all of this in a way Holt simply doesn't. Hell, just people being stuck on their phones all day speaks to Vic and the man-machine fusion more than anyone else. And if DC treated Vic the way the larger media adaptations do, he'd already be considered A-list.

    If DC could pull their heads out of their asses and stop cycling Vic through his "woe is me I'm a freak" attitude, Cyborg could easily and quickly become a big deal, who comments on modern society and the role of technology in our lives in a way nobody else can. Not to mention he offers some representation for the physically handicapped (comic book representation so his disability isn't really a disability but still) and that's something not many offer.
    Upgrades: For the better part of 30 years, Black Panther was just a Captain America substitute with sharper senses and no shield, until Priest got into his full potential. What if you cyborgized Mr. Terrific just slightly; link his T-Spheres directly into his neural system:
    • Make his reflexes and metabolic processes superhuman.
    • Give him the ability to project an AI avatar into virtual space (a sciency version of astral projection).
    • Make him what amounts to an electronic telepath.
    • Etc.

    Above all, make his arsenal flexible, to reflect his genius intellect.

    Like you, I've always thought that both Mr. Terrifics lacked a distinctive hook, although the current one far less than the original. It wouldn't take much (beyond a really good, really committed writer). DC kind of lacks for superheroes in the middle space between say, Nightwing and Green Lantern. Mr. Terrific could occupy that spot with adventures that range almost any level of the DCU (except, possibly, the mystical planes).

    The Motherbox addition is something I actually dislike about Cyborg. Rather than Man Achieving Oneness With Technology, it's Outside Forces Upgrading Man. To me, that's an agency thing (IMO, that's also a limitation on Green Lantern).
    Last edited by DrNewGod; 06-29-2020 at 11:54 AM.

  7. #2182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Black Lightning would've worked better on the Big Seven then Cyborg or Mr. Terrific.

    Because, let's face it, you're never going to completely disconnect Cyborg from the Titans franchise no matter how hard you push him with the League in other media.

    Agreed, I like Martian Manhunter and Cyborg just fine but I hated putting them on the same pedestal as the big 6. Besides being good characters, Clark, Bruce, GL, Flash, Diana and Arthur have good stories behind them with their own corners of the dcu, mythos, side characters, their own villains. I don’t think J’onn or Vick have that at all.
    Black Lightning on the other hand while it would a lot of push and talent, he’s got all the right ingredients to be an A lister, which is more than I can say for Cyborg (who again, I like just fine).

  8. #2183
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Upgrades: What if you cyborgized Mr. Terrific just slightly; link his T-Spheres directly into his neural system:
    You could, but I don't think it would work as well (and this is just me, obviously). Holt is a futurist but thematically he's more about the unbridled potential of the human intellect and what we could achieve, and less about questioning the nature of humanity itself, and where the limits of that are. Similar themes to be sure, but aimed at different targets. Holt is basically chasing the horizon while Vic's looking within, and while you could combine those two things into Holt, I feel like you'd probably lose something in the translation.

    Besides, this basically just makes Holt more like Vic and I'd rather make Vic more like what Vic should be. If that makes any sense?

    But yeah, DC could definitely do this. It's not necessarily something I'd want to see, but who knows? Maybe I'd be sold on it.

    The Motherbox addition is something I actually dislike about Cyborg. Rather than Man Achieving Oneness With Technology, it's Outside Forces Upgrading Man. To me, that's an agency thing (IMO, that's also a limitation on Green Lantern).
    I felt the same way at first, but the idea grew on me. It does remove the "100% Made in the USA" (by which I mean humanity) element, but I think the pro's outweigh the con's. Or at least they could and should; The comics has utterly failed Victor Stone in every way they can, but the concepts at play have value.

    I favor the Knight family and Starman mantle for that "look what man can do, with only his own resources and mind, and no magic hats and alien wands" theme anyway.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  9. #2184
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I love the "Cyborg is a Human Mother Box" thing. I think it's never been done to its fullest potential, but it's definitely a cool concept.

    Here's a pretty spicy hot take - I think Cyborg looking inward and doubting his own humanity and all that gets boring really fast if it's not balanced with just - Cyborg being really fun and cool. The Teen Titans animated series made Cyborg a legitimate mainstream star, and after granting him that kind of mainstream status via membership in the League, DC has just kept on going back to the same tired well of Cyborg being introspective, mopey, and angry all the time, 'cause he's not sure if he's human or not.

    The cartoon had a lot of good Cyborg episodes where he did that kinda thing, but it worked well in contrast to Cyborg's normally fun-loving and carefree personality. It gave him hidden depths. The way DC treats him, he doesn't have hidden depths, he's just kind of a depressing person.

    Even stories that do a good job with those questions, like his (I thought pretty solid) DC You arc, or his role in YJ: Outsiders, still often lack, or have in painfully small amounts, that joie de vivre that made a generation fall in love with Vic Stone to begin with.

    The two major live action portrayals of Cyborg illustrate this pretty well. Look, I don't want to give Ray Fisher any more crap than he's had to deal with, because he was robbed, and hopefully we'll get more of him after Zack Snyder's Justice League comes out next year - but just because he was robbed in the theatrical cut, I haven't gotten any sense that he's gonna have more of that joie de vivre in Snyder's version. And sure, it's a dark story about a dark time in Vic's life, I get it, it's reasonable - but it's not reflective of the reason why a casual fan would be excited to hear that Cyborg was in the Justice League movie to begin with. Expectation: Boo-yah! Reality: Boo-hoo!

    Joivan Wade's Cyborg is pretty much the opposite. He's got depth, he's got darkness, he's got secrets, but his default approach is to be upbeat and fun, and an effective super-hero. Probably he wouldn't have fit into the DCEU in the slightest, but it's hard not to feel that he's just... constructed with more awareness of what people like about Cyborg.
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  10. #2185
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I love the "Cyborg is a Human Mother Box" thing. I think it's never been done to its fullest potential, but it's definitely a cool concept.

    Here's a pretty spicy hot take - I think Cyborg looking inward and doubting his own humanity and all that gets boring really fast if it's not balanced with just - Cyborg being really fun and cool. The Teen Titans animated series made Cyborg a legitimate mainstream star, and after granting him that kind of mainstream status via membership in the League, DC has just kept on going back to the same tired well of Cyborg being introspective, mopey, and angry all the time, 'cause he's not sure if he's human or not.

    The cartoon had a lot of good Cyborg episodes where he did that kinda thing, but it worked well in contrast to Cyborg's normally fun-loving and carefree personality. It gave him hidden depths. The way DC treats him, he doesn't have hidden depths, he's just kind of a depressing person.
    That's a controversial opinion!? Do people not like fun Vic!?

  11. #2186
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I feel like DC is reluctant to push Black Lightning because they're afraid of offending their more conservative fans.Removing his daughters doesn't help either.
    I think the problem was the rights issues with Tony Isabella. Once those finally got resolved more or less they had Isabella do a mini-series not long after the show was announced, and he was the one who wrote the girls out as his daughters.

    I think Outsiders is just an instance of DC being economical with certain characters and putting them together in a book under the Bat-Branding for maximum sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Agreed, I like Martian Manhunter and Cyborg just fine but I hated putting them on the same pedestal as the big 6. Besides being good characters, Clark, Bruce, GL, Flash, Diana and Arthur have good stories behind them with their own corners of the dcu, mythos, side characters, their own villains. I donít think Jíonn or Vick have that at all.
    Black Lightning on the other hand while it would a lot of push and talent, heís got all the right ingredients to be an A lister, which is more than I can say for Cyborg (who again, I like just fine).
    For me you have to convince me that the person you replace J'onn with is a good fit for the team and the Big Seven dynamic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Even stories that do a good job with those questions, like his (I thought pretty solid) DC You arc, or his role in YJ: Outsiders, still often lack, or have in painfully small amounts, that joie de vivre that made a generation fall in love with Vic Stone to begin with.
    I mean, Outsiders just followed his original Wolfman/Perez character development of being this angsty, angry, and sullen guy into the hero people would more recognize from the Teen Titans cartoon.

  12. #2187
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Of course he is.

    When you are pandering to certain fandom who would throw fits if you didn't water him down or take elements from the show.

    When Tony complained about the Outsiders-we saw some folsk including store owners rip Tony's book and defend Hill's version. With one store screaming nobody bought YOUR book Tony. Which is funny since the trade had zero issues finding an audience and outselling Hill's Outsiders trade.

    Dc is so scared of offending that vocal minority that we see this brick wall that not jsut BL hits but Cyborg as well. As if Cyborg being more popualr that Harley or Batman is doomsday.

    Meanwhile at the House of Mouse the world did not end with Black Panther and Miles Morales films winning Oscars. Carol Danvers making a billion. The checks at Marvel still cleared.

    Dc has to get to that point. You can A list talent Hal, Bruce, WW and others all you like but that doesn't help Cyborg.

    Folks keep seeing better version of Cyborg outside of comics. Which mean even if someone asked for more-can't give it to them because that version can't be found in comics. Money lost.
    I'll be honest, at the time Tony Isabella made those comments, I was willing to give Soy the benefit of the doubt because his run just started. However, as the current Outsiders series progresed, I've come to realize that Mr. Isabella was 100% right.

  13. #2188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I love the "Cyborg is a Human Mother Box" thing. I think it's never been done to its fullest potential, but it's definitely a cool concept.

    Here's a pretty spicy hot take - I think Cyborg looking inward and doubting his own humanity and all that gets boring really fast if it's not balanced with just - Cyborg being really fun and cool. The Teen Titans animated series made Cyborg a legitimate mainstream star, and after granting him that kind of mainstream status via membership in the League, DC has just kept on going back to the same tired well of Cyborg being introspective, mopey, and angry all the time, 'cause he's not sure if he's human or not.

    The cartoon had a lot of good Cyborg episodes where he did that kinda thing, but it worked well in contrast to Cyborg's normally fun-loving and carefree personality. It gave him hidden depths. The way DC treats him, he doesn't have hidden depths, he's just kind of a depressing person.

    Even stories that do a good job with those questions, like his (I thought pretty solid) DC You arc, or his role in YJ: Outsiders, still often lack, or have in painfully small amounts, that joie de vivre that made a generation fall in love with Vic Stone to begin with.

    The two major live action portrayals of Cyborg illustrate this pretty well. Look, I don't want to give Ray Fisher any more crap than he's had to deal with, because he was robbed, and hopefully we'll get more of him after Zack Snyder's Justice League comes out next year - but just because he was robbed in the theatrical cut, I haven't gotten any sense that he's gonna have more of that joie de vivre in Snyder's version. And sure, it's a dark story about a dark time in Vic's life, I get it, it's reasonable - but it's not reflective of the reason why a casual fan would be excited to hear that Cyborg was in the Justice League movie to begin with. Expectation: Boo-yah! Reality: Boo-hoo!

    Joivan Wade's Cyborg is pretty much the opposite. He's got depth, he's got darkness, he's got secrets, but his default approach is to be upbeat and fun, and an effective super-hero. Probably he wouldn't have fit into the DCEU in the slightest, but it's hard not to feel that he's just... constructed with more awareness of what people like about Cyborg.
    I can excuse YJ Outsiders Cyborg for being angsty, he's at the start of his hero career.Comics Cyborg who is already established should be long past his angst phase.

  14. #2189
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I can excuse YJ Outsiders Cyborg for being angsty, he's at the start of his hero career.Comics Cyborg who is already established should be long past his angst phase.
    Well, which comic Cyborg are we talking about? None of the New 52 heroes felt like they changed at all in the supposed five year timeskip to where you could assume it was just a month between arcs. And that run still developed him past being "man or machine."

    I don't think "man or machine" came up at all during Johns' Titans. Maybe briefly during his Flash run when Johns brought back Cyborg's iconic look, but it wasn't dwelled on.

  15. #2190
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    BLack Lightning is a much better character with his daughters in his life.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 06-29-2020 at 03:27 PM.

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