Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[phonogram12]

Yep.

The Kents are nice and all, but beyond some nice "family" scenes here and there, I don't think keeping them alive brings much to the table. And the reasoning behind not keeping them dead (Clark needs them around to stay human, Clark would be just like Batman if they were dead, etc) is always faulty.

Exactly. Clark grew up with his parents and did not see them gunned down before his eyes. He's a pretty well-rounded person. Plus, there's his friends at the Daily Planet who certainly helps him keep in touch with his humanity.

[Gaius]

In the same vein, I'd choose the Holiday Girls and the I-Ching over the Kapatelis' any day. Seriously, the Kapatelis' are dry as toast.

Seriously, I don't see what people have against a colorful supporting cast.

Well, in regards to I-Ching it’s probably because he’s a racist stereotype.

[phonogram12]

Well, in regards to I-Ching it’s probably because he’s a racist stereotype.

While I obviously can't speak for all Asians, as an Asian man, I'm every bit as fine with I-Ching as I am with Shang-Chi. Fu Manchu and Yellow Claw, on the other hand...

[Restingvoice]

As ethnically Chinese, I'm fine with the I-Ching I've seen because even in Chinese fiction we get a lot of Blind Masters or just Old Masters in general. I don't know if he has anything more than that in other stories I haven't read though.
Now if it's a problem because it's stereotyping Chinese people and its effect on Chinese American because they're just like other Americans, as in, not kung fu masters or apprentices, then that's different.

[Frontier]

New Super-Man had a good revamp of I-Ching.

[Agent Z]

In the same vein, I'd choose the Holiday Girls and the I-Ching over the Kapatelis' any day. Seriously, the Kapatelis' are dry as toast.

Seriously, I don't see what people have against a colorful supporting cast.

Maybe people's idea of what a colorful supporting cast is just different from yours.

The Kapatelis aren't dry as toast just because they aren't the Holiday Girls or a racist stereotype and they actually have defined and established characters. Meanwhile, none of the fans of the Holiday Girls can even seem to remember their names.

[SiegePerilous02]

In the same vein, I'd choose the Holiday Girls and the I-Ching over the Kapatelis' any day. Seriously, the Kapatelis' are dry as toast.

Seriously, I don't see what people have against a colorful supporting cast.

Maybe people's idea of what a colorful supporting cast is just different from yours.

The Kapatelis aren't dry as toast just because they aren't the Holiday Girls or a racist stereotype and they actually have defined and established characters. Meanwhile, none of the fans of the Holiday Girls can even seem to remember their names.

I could live without I-Ching.

I do like the Kapatelis women though, I've grown more fond of them the more I re-read the Perez run. And her Man's world cast is so small, I think it could stand to use some additions and they, Myndi Mayer and Ferdinand are probably the best additions to Steve and Etta. I see no reason why a classic style Etta Candy and her Holliday Girls can't co-exist with Julia and Vanessa. Julia can even teach at Holliday College.

As for their names, off the top of my head: Eve Brown, Roberta Strong, Faith Alden, Glamora Treat, Virginia True, Patsy Peters, Susan Tardee, Gel Ossey, Millie/Lillie/Tillie Heyday...
Granted, none of them are actually fleshed out characters, but neither were a lot of the Amazons Perez invented. Historia is overhauling them to be more diverse and have stuff going on (ex: Aella being black and in a romance with Pythia), no reason somebody can't do the same with the Holliday Girls.

[phonogram12]

Maybe people's idea of what a colorful supporting cast is just different from yours.

Or maybe your idea of what a colorful supporting cast is just different than peoples. It's all subjective.

As for their names, off the top of my head: Eve Brown, Roberta Strong, Faith Alden, Glamora Treat, Virginia True, Patsy Peters, Susan Tardee, Gel Ossey, Millie/Lillie/Tillie Heyday...
Granted, none of them are actually fleshed out characters, but neither were a lot of the Amazons Perez invented. Historia is overhauling them to be more diverse and have stuff going on (ex: Aella being black and in a romance with Pythia), no reason somebody can't do the same with the Holliday Girls.

Excellent point.

[Vordan]

New Super-Man had a good revamp of I-Ching.

The trick to a lot of these old stereotypical characters is to let people who have actual ties to the cultures they were connected to write them. If they can see value or potential in rehabilitating them, then I say stand back and let them do that. Yang did a great job with I-Ching in NSM like you said.

[Agent Z]

Or maybe your idea of what a colorful supporting cast is just different than peoples. It's all subjective.

Seriously, I don't see what people have against a colorful supporting cast.

Well if this isn't throwing stones in glass houses.

[TheRay]

Jay Garrick is too underrated as The Flash.

[SiegePerilous02]

True. But when people talk about Amazons they like, they usually are at least able to name them. I don't see that often with the Holiday Girls and their fans never seem to actually explain why they like them.

It is usually only the same handful of Amazons though (Philippus, Artemis, Mala, Nubia, sometimes Euboea). The brief character sheets Jimenez wrote up for Aella and Timandra have already made them more distinct than they were before.

For the HG, I think it's because people think they are fun, they represent a pseudo group of Amazons-in-training that represent similar themes in Man's World, and they are lead by Etta. And subsequent versions of Etta, barring some that capture the spirit of the original (LoWW and Earth One, Simone's) just aren't that good compared to the one that lead the Holliday Girls.

Nobody is saying they are great complex characters outside of Etta, but I think the simple reasoning above is sufficient. Also, it's not like they are often given a chance to be more than they are.

[Tzigone]

For me, the Holliday girls are only an extension of golden age Etta. Love me some golden age Etta and would like seeing the Holliday girls as part of Diana's early days again. But I also think they have a limited lifespan - they are a sorority. They graduate college, go their own ways (with what they've learned), and only occasionally guest thereafter. Etta can stay in the same city and be a bff for Diana. It would not work for me for half a dozen others to turn their lives over to working for Diana forever. If she's in a large city, some can stay local, but some of them will get married, have kids, or drift away over time. I'd prefer them to have adventures during college reunions and whatnot.

If Diana were to have a secret identity, I definitely woudn't want Diana associated with the college. Wonder Woman is their leader (well except or through Etta), and I don't want Diana having authority over them instead of mixing in with them in that capacity, too.

Also not interested in a revolving cast of Holliday girls over the years. They come through Etta and because of her to me. So once Etta isn't there, the connection wanes and then vanishes after ones who were freshmen when Etta was a senior graduate.

Now if it's a problem because it's stereotyping Chinese people and its effect on Chinese American because they're just like other Americans, as in, not kung fu masters or apprentices, then that's different.

Definitely is an issue (even among Asian supervillains or heroes what percentage do no martial arts?), but there are so few ordinary people in comics now, it's probably not as noticeable as it once was.

[SiegePerilous02]

For me, the Holliday girls are only an extension of golden age Etta. Love me some golden age Etta and would like seeing the Holliday girls as part of Diana's early days again. But I also think they have a limited lifespan - they are a sorority. They graduate college, go their own ways (with what they've learned), and only occasionally guest thereafter. Etta can stay in the same city and be a bff for Diana. It would not work for me for half a dozen others to turn their lives over to working for Diana forever. If she's in a large city, some can stay local, but some of them will get married, have kids, or drift away over time. I'd prefer them to have adventures during college reunions and whatnot.

If Diana were to have a secret identity, I definitely woudn't want Diana associated with the college. Wonder Woman is their leader (well except or through Etta), and I don't want Diana having authority over them instead of mixing in with them in that capacity, too.

Also not interested in a revolving cast of Holliday girls over the years. They come through Etta and because of her to me. So once Etta isn't there, the connection wanes and then vanishes after ones who were freshmen when Etta was a senior graduate.

Yes, the way I envision the WW mythos is the Holliday Girls are around for while Etta is in College and she is the main focus. The others would get focus here and there. But once she graduates, attention would shift. Beyond that, future generations of them might cameo if Diana and Etta visit the campus or ideally if Julia teaches there.

Basically, I would just like them to be acknowledged as existing and as part of her history like they actually were. I don't need the book to turn into Wonder Woman + the Holliday Girls 24/7 in the present.

[TheRay]

Geoff Johns definitely does not/did not have too much power.