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  1. #1096
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Maybe we didn't read the same stories, but that's not how I saw it. I know that among fandom he wasn't very revered, but I remember Jason's death definitely weighed on Batman as his failure - not Jason's regardless of whether or not Jason was the problem child /possible murderer.

    And on the other Jason topic, if Jason had simply lived through "Death in the Family" but had still be beaten and traumatized by the Joker, the rest of his journey to become the Red Hood still could have turned out pretty much the same, imo.
    At first, yeah. Then came the victim blaming;



    "Jason was too rash and died because of it!"

    https://fuckyeahjasontodd.tumblr.com...blamed-for-his

    In the actual issue, Jason, even after being beaten and betrayed, while left for dead with Sheila, still tried to save the woman that betrayed him. DC changed it to Jason basically deserving to be killed. Turned Jason into a horror story for future Robins and other such members of the Bats.

  2. #1097
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    More like it was only used as a justification for Bruce to become more closed off and abusive towards Dick and others until Tim showed up.
    Well that is how storytelling works.

    Jason's death and Bruce's reaction to it is a moment of actual in-universe effects that wasn't just wiped away or around for a couple writers.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  3. #1098
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Well that is how storytelling works.

    Jason's death and Bruce's reaction to it is a moment of actual in-universe effects that wasn't just wiped away or around for a couple writers.
    Actually, I'm not sure that's true. It seemed like much of his anger and grief over Jason had passed, and then only popped up again when they decided to bring Tim in, I think (may be misremembering). And Bruce was much better with Dick and not abusive through the earlier 1990s, only to have it pop up again (on steroids) in the late 1990s.

    At first, yeah. Then came the victim blaming;
    Victim-blaming came early from DC. Depressing, with it's quotes from writers and entry from the letters page. It's really heavy during the time Tim joins the team - from other characters.

    Characters have been coming back to life in Batman long before they brought Jason Todd back.
    At least since Alfred (I really can't count Joker's supposed demises). Mind you, Jason Todd coming back didn't mean much to me. I dislike that he was brought back as a villain - as has been discussed before, I think this was done was a result of the vilification of Jason as a bad seed for so many years, when it was a very unfair assessment. I think the Superboy punch was stupid (and am very mildly annoyed at good character gone to paradise being made evil Superboy Prime), and I don't like anti-heroes, so haven't read the recent stuff with him. But I just deeply dislike those who say he was well-regarded and respected in death (he wasn't), or that he was good as a cautionary tale (victim-blaming for a heroic death). I like that his return at least makes people care how shoddily the character was treated in death, even if I never had a particular attachment to him. I just so dislike the unfairness of the judgement laid on him.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 09-03-2019 at 06:02 PM.

  4. #1099
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Actually, I'm not sure that's true. It seemed like much of his anger had passed, and then only popped up again when they decided to bring Tim in. And Bruce was much better with Dick and not abusive through the earlier 1990s, only to have it pop up again (on steroids) in the late 1990s.

    Victim-blaming came early from DC. Depressing, with it's quotes from writers and entry from the letters page. It's really heavy during the time Tim joins the team.
    Not every story was going to have Bruce be angry but there was a general sense of Bruce being more angry since he was the brooding loner again.

    I'm not talking about Bruce being abusive to Dick. I only ever think of early Chuck Dixon stuff when I think of that.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  5. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    And on the other Jason topic, if Jason had simply lived through "Death in the Family" but had still be beaten and traumatized by the Joker, the rest of his journey to become the Red Hood still could have turned out pretty much the same, imo.
    I doubt that.
    After "Death in the Family" the author got fired, and the Editorial was forced by some higher ups to create a new Robin (I think the original plan was to get rid of Robin completly).

    I Jason had survived I'm pretty sure they would have been forced to bring him back instead of creating Tim.

  6. #1101
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Superman doesn't need Lois Lane more than she needs him. He doesn't even need her for great stories.

    That said, I love Lois, she's a great character who can also work on her own, but historically, Superman has saved her from many death, including the movies and shows lol.

  7. #1102
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    If any character doesn't need the other, it's Lois Lane not needing Superman. Lois Lane was one of the first female reporters in comic books and comic strips, but she wasn't the only one. She could have easily been spun off into her own series and maintained it for a long time--especially once the popularity of super-hero comics dipped in the late 1940s and crime reporting stories were on the upswing. Indeed, she probably could have lasted even longer in her own newspaper adventure strip, like Brenda Starr which lasted from 1940 to 2011.

    Now Superman worked for a long time as a fish out of water story. You have Superman, the fish out of water, but you need a situation that provides suitable contrast to make that concept work--and you need characters in that situation. And Lois Lane was the leading character that represented that situation--the normal workings of a daily newspaper. She was created before any of the others--notably Perry and Jimmy--and Superman needed her to say and do the things that would heighten the sense of him being a fish out of water.

  8. #1103
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    I genuinely don't see the appeal of Lois Lane outside the context of a Superman story.
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

    currently following:
    • DC: Red Hood: The Hill
    • Marvel: TBD
    • Manga (Shonen/Seinen): One Piece, My Hero, Dandadan, Jujutsu Kaisen, Kaiju No. 8, Reincarnation of The Veteran Soldier, Oblivion Rouge, ORDEAL, The Breaker: Eternal Force

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

  9. #1104
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I genuinely don't see the appeal of Lois Lane outside the context of a Superman story.
    A sassy, take no prisoner, bombshell of a reporter dedicated to exposing the truth and righting wrongs in any way she can no matter what kind of danger she throws herself into? Feels fairly versatile in my opinion .

  10. #1105
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Ivan Reis' art has gotten stale. He should either mix up his creative partners (team with a different inker and bolder colorists) or leave DC for indie work / Marvel. Maybe both.

  11. #1106
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    The Kara Danvers/Supergirl on the TV show Supergirl is Lois Lane with superpowers, not a female version of Clark Kent/Superman.

  12. #1107
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    A sassy, take no prisoner, bombshell of a reporter dedicated to exposing the truth and righting wrongs in any way she can no matter what kind of danger she throws herself into? Feels fairly versatile in my opinion .
    iunno, people keep telling me how cool Lois is but much like Morrison, Star Wars, and Nolan films, she just doesn't live up to what people are telling me. she's just one of those side-characters I can't seem to get into like Jimmy Olsen or Carol Ferris. like it's not like I'd lose my mind with anger if they are on the page but I just wouldn't care to read a book about them specifically.
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

    currently following:
    • DC: Red Hood: The Hill
    • Marvel: TBD
    • Manga (Shonen/Seinen): One Piece, My Hero, Dandadan, Jujutsu Kaisen, Kaiju No. 8, Reincarnation of The Veteran Soldier, Oblivion Rouge, ORDEAL, The Breaker: Eternal Force

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

  13. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    The Kara Danvers/Supergirl on the TV show Supergirl is Lois Lane with superpowers, not a female version of Clark Kent/Superman.
    TV Supergirl is too likable to be Lois Lane. The only time I ever thought Lois was likable was in the Superman the Animated Series.

  14. #1109
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    Lois is restrained from breaking out, because she's so closely attached to Superman. If a creative team was free to tell Lois Lane stories without having to link her with Superman and have her serve as his love interest, they could do a lot more with her. It's Superman that keeps Lois down. Look at how Black Canary broke out when she was in the Birds of Prey and no longer had to serve Green Arrow's storyline.

    Not that I'm against the Lois and Clark team or the Dinah and Ollie team--but the women are great characters and it's not their fault if they get pushed to the side for the sake of the male hero.

  15. #1110
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Lois is restrained from breaking out, because she's so closely attached to Superman. If a creative team was free to tell Lois Lane stories without having to link her with Superman and have her serve as his love interest, they could do a lot more with her. It's Superman that keeps Lois down. Look at how Black Canary broke out when she was in the Birds of Prey and no longer had to serve Green Arrow's storyline.

    Not that I'm against the Lois and Clark team or the Dinah and Ollie team--but the women are great characters and it's not their fault if they get pushed to the side for the sake of the male hero.
    Thing is, in the superhero world DC is offering, Lois Lane can make for some great Astro City-esque stories. Occasionally.

    Trying to make an ongoing out of her requires opening up the DCU to be a broader environment that what their showing us. DC has been steadily narrowing its environment over the last 35 years. There were a few attempts to open it up here and there (Vertigo, All-Star Western), but the publisher has been steadily doubling down on making their world exclusively about the superheroes and what's going on with them.

    Taking that as a given, you're left with two options for Lois. First, try to make a superhero out of her, which starts messing with Superman's entire brand, and so, ain't happenin'. Second, use her as a window into a world beyond that we normally look at in DC, which works from time to time, but probably isn't sustainable for a long run.

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