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  1. #3496
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Exactly. That is why I loved Byrne's Dark Angel reveal. It embraces, celebrates, and ironically un-complicates that ball of yarn.

    That was a stroke of genius (not so much for his clumsy attempt to revise the origin of the Gods)
    I actually thought the general consensus among fandom was that Byrne made it even worse than the Dark Angel stuff? This is the first I've seen a positive reaction to it.
    Donna's first post-Crisis origin story was ok because it at least was still by Perez and Wolfman, even if they themselves admitted it was step down and done out of obligation. Every post-Crisis development for Donna just makes me go cross eyed when I read summaries of it. There is a reason "Who is Donna Troy?" is generally considered a classic while the rest are not.

  2. #3497
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Donna is the one case where trying to 'embrace' her history will back fire badly.

    Best thing to do is just come up with a simple origin that's close to enough to what Wolfman/Perez came up with and just stick with it.

  3. #3498
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    If I had a chance to reestablish Donna, I’d just have the Earth 1 Donna skip through the cracks of reality and live on Prime Earth.
    That is the best version of the character.

  4. #3499
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I actually thought the general consensus among fandom was that Byrne made it even worse than the Dark Angel stuff? This is the first I've seen a positive reaction to it.
    Donna's first post-Crisis origin story was ok because it at least was still by Perez and Wolfman, even if they themselves admitted it was step down and done out of obligation. Every post-Crisis development for Donna just makes me go cross eyed when I read summaries of it. There is a reason "Who is Donna Troy?" is generally considered a classic while the rest are not.
    Oh at the time many of us were up in arms in general due to his run. But I felt most of what he accomplished was good. Wonder Woman had been softly, quietly rebooted with Messner-Loebs. Byrne restored the Perez/Berger origin and powers and further improved the design where her durability was concerned. He also went out of his way to restore Diana's adventurous spirit as well as her extended family (a title called Sensation or Amazons featuring Artemis would have rocked as he had a nice take on her). Further he provided some much needed details about the passage of time on the Island. Then of course there is Cassie!

    It wasn't ALL roses of course. The use of Hippolyte as Wonder Xena had lasting repercussions. His desire to promote the Fourth World spawned some truly catastrophic retcons (thank Goodness Eric Luke wasted no time fixing that restoring the classical Wolfman/Perez/Berger hierarchy of Divinities on the first page of his first issue) impacting multiple properties. Many felt Diana became a guest star on her own book during this time due to his use of the very same formula deployed on his Superman tenure. Superman didn't come across that way because he had two other books. However I felt it accomplished a much needed good in demonstrating her power and abilities against other uberpowerful foes.

    One thing that I should say is that my appreciation of his run is greatly augmented due to reading WONDER WOMAN: GODS & GODDESSES.
    Last edited by Stanlos; 07-28-2021 at 02:30 PM.

  5. #3500
    Boisterously Confused
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    [The Real] Captain Marvel outta whup Superman up and down the block. Without Prep Time, there are at least half-a-dozen characters that should spank Batman like he's a naughty school boy.

  6. #3501
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    Just have Donna with her pre crisis origin.

  7. #3502
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Donna is the one case where trying to 'embrace' her history will back fire badly.

    Best thing to do is just come up with a simple origin that's close to enough to what Wolfman/Perez came up with and just stick with it.
    I mean, sure, if you're happy just phoning it in.

    I'm gonna be the second positive response to Donna's Dark Angel phase that Siege has seen. The problem with Donna is that you're in too deep already; her continuity is beyond broken and she's got too many ties to major IP's; changing her history creates a canon ripple effect across a big chunk of the DCU. Any attempt to resolve her origin will result in some part of her history not making sense internally, and/or rubbing up wrong against Diana's continuity, or the Titans (which spreads to Metropolis and Gotham and Central and.....). Try to fix the origin again and you're just throwing good money after bad.

    Byrne made all the reboots work for the character by internalizing these different continuities; the breaks in her canon isn't "bad writing," it was an attack on a multi-dimensional level. Donna is the victim of non-consensual rebooting. Whatever her history and dynamics were at any given time? That's exactly how Donna experienced it, regardless of what the official modern continuity is.

    The whole Dark Angel thing is clever; it gives Donna a rogue of her own (how deep is Donna's rogues gallery? Two people?) with a cosmic scope but very personal motivations. It makes Donna's broken history work for her; instead of trying to paint over a broken wall Byrne just installed a window. And most importantly, it gave Donna a major role and niche in the DCU; a narrative purpose she has never had before or since. "Donna Troy, Harbinger of the Multiverse" wasn't just a character with ensemble appeal, that was a character you could hang a solo on. Defending continuity, hunted by a foe who had literally rewritten Donna's reality several times, dealing with cosmic titans and expanding on the Monitor lore.....when has Donna ever had that much going for her?

    It could have been her "Nightwing" moment. But alas.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-28-2021 at 07:12 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #3503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I mean, sure, if you're happy just phoning it in.

    I'm gonna be the second positive response to Donna's Dark Angel phase that Siege has seen. The problem with Donna is that you're in too deep already; her continuity is beyond broken and she's got too many ties to major IP's; changing her history creates a canon ripple effect across a big chunk of the DCU. Any attempt to resolve her origin will result in some part of her history not making sense internally, and/or rubbing up wrong against Diana's continuity, or the Titans (which spreads to Metropolis and Gotham and Central and.....). Try to fix the origin again and you're just throwing good money after bad.
    That's what they already did by retconning her origin in the first place. Donna's problem began when they tried to make something that was simple and made it confusing for no reason. The Dark Angel thing didn't fix that.



    The whole Dark Angel thing is clever; it gives Donna a rogue of her own (how deep is Donna's rogues gallery? Two people?)
    He says she needs a rogue? It's not like she was a solo hero. Nor does she need to be one.

    But if you wanted to make a solo about Donna, focus on her ties to both Themyscira and Man's World. Explore the perspective of someone born and raised in two worlds. That is just as interesting if not more and far less confusing and headache-inducing. Byrne's idea was a weak attempt at making a long line of mistakes look like good writing (not to mention leaves Donna vulnerable to whatever idiocy DC decides to do with the multiverse again).

    Origins are supposed to be jumping off points. They aren't substitutes for characterization and this is a mistake a lot of writers have made.

  9. #3504
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That's what they already did by retconning her origin in the first place. Donna's problem began when they tried to make something that was simple and made it confusing for no reason. The Dark Angel thing didn't fix that.
    I only half-way agree. I still have problems with the continuity issues from her original origin, despite loving the NTT story (which was, of course, just a fleshing out of the earlier story). Not say it isn't simple, but that it just doesn't time out without significantly changing the universe, and changing it in ways I don't like.

  10. #3505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I mean, sure, if you're happy just phoning it in.

    I'm gonna be the second positive response to Donna's Dark Angel phase that Siege has seen. The problem with Donna is that you're in too deep already; her continuity is beyond broken and she's got too many ties to major IP's; changing her history creates a canon ripple effect across a big chunk of the DCU. Any attempt to resolve her origin will result in some part of her history not making sense internally, and/or rubbing up wrong against Diana's continuity, or the Titans (which spreads to Metropolis and Gotham and Central and.....). Try to fix the origin again and you're just throwing good money after bad.

    Byrne made all the reboots work for the character by internalizing these different continuities; the breaks in her canon isn't "bad writing," it was an attack on a multi-dimensional level. Donna is the victim of non-consensual rebooting. Whatever her history and dynamics were at any given time? That's exactly how Donna experienced it, regardless of what the official modern continuity is.

    The whole Dark Angel thing is clever; it gives Donna a rogue of her own (how deep is Donna's rogues gallery? Two people?) with a cosmic scope but very personal motivations. It makes Donna's broken history work for her; instead of trying to paint over a broken wall Byrne just installed a window. And most importantly, it gave Donna a major role and niche in the DCU; a narrative purpose she has never had before or since. "Donna Troy, Harbinger of the Multiverse" wasn't just a character with ensemble appeal, that was a character you could hang a solo on. Defending continuity, hunted by a foe who had literally rewritten Donna's reality several times, dealing with cosmic titans and expanding on the Monitor lore.....when has Donna ever had that much going for her?

    It could have been her "Nightwing" moment. But alas.
    To be fair, A LOT of Titans continuity is a hot mess and needs an overhaul.

    If simplifying Donna helps with that I'm all for it.

  11. #3506
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That's what they already did by retconning her origin in the first place. Donna's problem began when they tried to make something that was simple and made it confusing for no reason. The Dark Angel thing didn't fix that.





    He says she needs a rogue? It's not like she was a solo hero. Nor does she need to be one.

    But if you wanted to make a solo about Donna, focus on her ties to both Themyscira and Man's World. Explore the perspective of someone born and raised in two worlds. That is just as interesting if not more and far less confusing and headache-inducing. Byrne's idea was a weak attempt at making a long line of mistakes look like good writing (not to mention leaves Donna vulnerable to whatever idiocy DC decides to do with the multiverse again).

    Origins are supposed to be jumping off points. They aren't substitutes for characterization and this is a mistake a lot of writers have made.
    Yeah, while not fundamentally bad, the idea... isn't adaptable because of how many moving parts it has :/ Which means no one will use it because it's too complex.

    There's no way to make her origin concise without making a new one. Which could be done by fusing parts of her old origins together. My personal take was: Human girl rescued from tragic house fire by Diana. Who takes her to Themiscyra when Diana realizes Donna's not actually an ordinary mortal. Later finds out her powers come from the Titans of Myth.

    It gives her a connection to Diana, since Diana acts kinda like a foster mother to her. She's an Amazon since she was trained on Paradise Island. But NOT a clone of Diana and someone uniquely different.

  12. #3507
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I'm trying to read all that but my eyes just glazed because I don't have a visual reference

    As someone who doesn't know her, Titans connection seems the simplest, no-brainer answer for a character with connection to Greek myth and a team that she named Titans after the myth, that I'm confused why this is even a debate.

  13. #3508
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    There's no way to make her origin concise without making a new one. Which could be done by fusing parts of her old origins together. My personal take was: Human girl rescued from tragic house fire by Diana. Who takes her to Themiscyra when Diana realizes Donna's not actually an ordinary mortal. Later finds out her powers come from the Titans of Myth.

    It gives her a connection to Diana, since Diana acts kinda like a foster mother to her. She's an Amazon since she was trained on Paradise Island. But NOT a clone of Diana and someone uniquely different.
    I don't care about the connection to Diana, since they were not close for most of Donna's history. Hippolyta was her foster mother (if you're going to make her an Amazon, which I rather like, but am not married to). I do care about the timeline, and that screws it up entirely to me (I very much favor Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman debuting within a few years of each other, and I very much care that Dick is Robin early on and that Donna is similar in age to him).

    As someone who doesn't know her, Titans connection seems the simplest, no-brainer answer for a character with connection to Greek myth and a team that she named Titans after the myth, that I'm confused why this is even a debate.
    Don't hate it, but it doesn't do much for me, either. Sadly, that's better than I feel about a lot of Donna ideas.

    I actually don't prefer any other mortals on Thymscira between when they leave Man's World (or, more accurately, when Diana is made) and when Steve crashes there (I like that to be her first exposure to the outside world), but that's pretty much a lost cause.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-30-2021 at 12:54 PM.

  14. #3509
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I mean, sure, if you're happy just phoning it in.

    I'm gonna be the second positive response to Donna's Dark Angel phase that Siege has seen. The problem with Donna is that you're in too deep already; her continuity is beyond broken and she's got too many ties to major IP's; changing her history creates a canon ripple effect across a big chunk of the DCU. Any attempt to resolve her origin will result in some part of her history not making sense internally, and/or rubbing up wrong against Diana's continuity, or the Titans (which spreads to Metropolis and Gotham and Central and.....). Try to fix the origin again and you're just throwing good money after bad.

    Byrne made all the reboots work for the character by internalizing these different continuities; the breaks in her canon isn't "bad writing," it was an attack on a multi-dimensional level. Donna is the victim of non-consensual rebooting. Whatever her history and dynamics were at any given time? That's exactly how Donna experienced it, regardless of what the official modern continuity is.

    The whole Dark Angel thing is clever; it gives Donna a rogue of her own (how deep is Donna's rogues gallery? Two people?) with a cosmic scope but very personal motivations. It makes Donna's broken history work for her; instead of trying to paint over a broken wall Byrne just installed a window. And most importantly, it gave Donna a major role and niche in the DCU; a narrative purpose she has never had before or since. "Donna Troy, Harbinger of the Multiverse" wasn't just a character with ensemble appeal, that was a character you could hang a solo on. Defending continuity, hunted by a foe who had literally rewritten Donna's reality several times, dealing with cosmic titans and expanding on the Monitor lore.....when has Donna ever had that much going for her?

    It could have been her "Nightwing" moment. But alas.
    Oh my god, how are there two of you?

    I think just quietly re-setting Donna to her pre-Crisis self as her foundation wouldn't cause any negative ripple effect at this point. At least not that anyone would notice, cuz DC continuity overall right now is totally fucked and will likely never get better anyway. Donna's origins have no reason to be confusing, and it just IMO doesn't make for a compelling character or situation that is fun to read. She's not an overly complicated character to begin with (she's refreshingly straightforward and that works very well in certain ensemble contexts though, like NTT) and all the continuity is just boring and confusing and nonsensical when piled onto such a person. It wouldn't have much of a domino effect on other corners because the other corners barely use her right now anyway. So just handwaving her back to being Hippolyta's second younger child that was adopted would make her (or the stuff around her) significantly less annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Don't hate it, but it doesn't do much for me, either. Sadly, that's better than I feel about a lot of Donna ideas.

    I actually don't prefer any other mortals on Thymscira between when they leave Man's World (or, more accurately, when Diana is made) and when Steve crashes there (I like that to be her first exposure to the outside world), but that's pretty much a lost cause.
    I think Donna can get away with being a mortal who arrives there because she is an infant when it happens, so her memories of the outside world are incredibly few and vague. Themyscira is her true home essentially, while it wouldn't be for Steve.

    I generally agree on mortals getting there before Steve though, it's why I don't really care for the Diana Trevor stuff.

  15. #3510
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I mean, sure, if you're happy just phoning it in.

    I'm gonna be the second positive response to Donna's Dark Angel phase that Siege has seen. The problem with Donna is that you're in too deep already; her continuity is beyond broken and she's got too many ties to major IP's; changing her history creates a canon ripple effect across a big chunk of the DCU. Any attempt to resolve her origin will result in some part of her history not making sense internally, and/or rubbing up wrong against Diana's continuity, or the Titans (which spreads to Metropolis and Gotham and Central and.....). Try to fix the origin again and you're just throwing good money after bad.

    Byrne made all the reboots work for the character by internalizing these different continuities; the breaks in her canon isn't "bad writing," it was an attack on a multi-dimensional level. Donna is the victim of non-consensual rebooting. Whatever her history and dynamics were at any given time? That's exactly how Donna experienced it, regardless of what the official modern continuity is.

    The whole Dark Angel thing is clever; it gives Donna a rogue of her own (how deep is Donna's rogues gallery? Two people?) with a cosmic scope but very personal motivations. It makes Donna's broken history work for her; instead of trying to paint over a broken wall Byrne just installed a window. And most importantly, it gave Donna a major role and niche in the DCU; a narrative purpose she has never had before or since. "Donna Troy, Harbinger of the Multiverse" wasn't just a character with ensemble appeal, that was a character you could hang a solo on. Defending continuity, hunted by a foe who had literally rewritten Donna's reality several times, dealing with cosmic titans and expanding on the Monitor lore.....when has Donna ever had that much going for her?

    It could have been her "Nightwing" moment. But alas.
    Trying boiling all of the down to a newbie whose getting into comics. This is the kind of stuff that only people who spent years reading comics. I'm not saying you can't do stories like that but you also need a stable foundation first. Also, Donna being the 'harbringer of the Multiverse' feels too close to Wanda's status as a 'nexus being' although I don't mind Donna having a role and stories that are different from Diana's.

    If I were tasked with fixing Donna Troy and keeping Diana's Rebirth origin in mind, I would have her as a young girl who was ship wrecked out at sea and rescued by a teenage Diana. She was raised on Paradise Island and raised by Diana until she became a teenager but wanting to know about her adoptive parents, she left the island, knowing that she can't return. A few years later, Diana reunites with Donna Troy and she's already made friends with the Titans but is still searching for her biological family.

    There, simple, straightforward, clean. Now what do you do with all the mess created by previous attempts to fix origins? I have suggested the idea of a 'time vacuum' before; basically if a character was erased from the timeline, they would be substituted in the present timeline by a fascimile from someone from another universe. Anyone close to them will gain memories of their counterpart but often don't realize their own contradictory memories. So yes, there is a universe where Donna Troy was rescued by Rhea and had no connection to Diana, there was a universe where she just Darkstar, a clay copy of WW and a child rescued from a burning building. Same goes for Hawkman. His Hawkworld counterpart were supposed to arrive 10 years prior to when they did but time was broken after the Crisis so Hawkmen from other universes substituted for him because time was broken and then broken further thanks to Zero Hour. So my take would be for Booster Gold and Waverider to recruit to Donna Troy, Hawkman and Hawkwoman to go on a time traveling adventure where they basically serve as 'continuity cops' attempting to fix the DCU history. (Kind of like what they are doing with Infinite Frontier but deeper)

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