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  1. #3526
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    What exactly do people refer to when they say "amazon training"? Because from the Marston stories I read there was no "secret technique" to get super powers. It was just about the power of thought. If you believe you can lift a giant boulder then you can lift a giant boulder.

  2. #3527
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    These feel like two completely separate ideas that have nothing to do with each other.

    ... I think you have a misunderstanding of what the Portrait of Dorian Gray was about.
    I'm making a comparison through the idea of someone being blessed while something else pays the price for their blessings. In Dorian Gray's case it was about aging. In my pitch for Donna Troy, Diana is protected from the wrath of the gods through the creation of Donna as a cursed being (instead of the greek gods being responsible it could be Titans or something else entirely).

    As for this connecting to Donna's insecurities, it's about her feeling worthless and abused and wanting to have Diana's childhood and adoration. Of course I'm talking about her origin. Eventually she would be happy with the help of Diana and the amazons and the Teen Titans. But she would always be the woman that defies fate.

  3. #3528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I believe each character in the family should embody a different archetype and theme.

    Donna was always the insecure one that could rise above her fears. And she also started out with the impossible tales from Kanigher. To me the John Byrne idea that Donna was artificially created and lived through all the unhappiness a women could experience in various lives is a cool update of both those themes from the 50s, and again, shows something that Diana should never be but that is important none the less for this theme of femininity and power.

    Cassie embodies this idea that Diana is bringing about a new type of woman, and that's why Cassie should be the example of an ordinary girl in a world post Wonder Woman, a girl that seeks adventure and power and doesn't have to think about what does it mean to be a strong woman, she can just live it out naturally.

    And I don't see what's confusing about my proposition, Donna is the "portrait of Dorian Gray" for Diana. A game between gods led to the creation of Donna Troy so she would live out all the unhappiness that Diana never experienced. She was cursed by time itself. Eventually an epic story about Diana finding out about this and trying to save Donna from the curse of time. Donna has the memories of Diana's happy childhood in Paradise Island, even though she herself never experienced it.
    Based on the themes of the book, Donna being a 'Portrait of Dorian Grey' for Diana might be worst than her having an inconsistent past.

  4. #3529
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    I don't mind Donna's messy origin. I love the Troia powers and I love the storyline when she became a God along with her sacrifice thereafter. I like all of it and it makes Donna one of the most connected heroes in the DCU. Instead of 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon they have Donna.

  5. #3530
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't care about the connection to Diana, since they were not close for most of Donna's history. Hippolyta was her foster mother (if you're going to make her an Amazon, which I rather like, but am not married to). I do care about the timeline, and that screws it up entirely to me (I very much favor Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman debuting within a few years of each other, and I very much care that Dick is Robin early on and that Donna is similar in age to him).

    Don't hate it, but it doesn't do much for me, either. Sadly, that's better than I feel about a lot of Donna ideas.
    I'm not sure exactly how you feel the timeline is a problem, please feel free to elaborate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I believe each character in the family should embody a different archetype and theme.

    Donna was always the insecure one that could rise above her fears. And she also started out with the impossible tales from Kanigher. To me the John Byrne idea that Donna was artificially created and lived through all the unhappiness a women could experience in various lives is a cool update of both those themes from the 50s, and again, shows something that Diana should never be but that is important none the less for this theme of femininity and power.

    Cassie embodies this idea that Diana is bringing about a new type of woman, and that's why Cassie should be the example of an ordinary girl in a world post Wonder Woman, a girl that seeks adventure and power and doesn't have to think about what does it mean to be a strong woman, she can just live it out naturally.

    And I don't see what's confusing about my proposition, Donna is the "portrait of Dorian Gray" for Diana. A game between gods led to the creation of Donna Troy so she would live out all the unhappiness that Diana never experienced. She was cursed by time itself. Eventually an epic story about Diana finding out about this and trying to save Donna from the curse of time. Donna has the memories of Diana's happy childhood in Paradise Island, even though she herself never experienced it.
    I don't think it's confusing, just terrible. If it was a NEW character and not a retcon to TWO existing characters it might work.

  6. #3531
    Fantastic Member atomicskull's Avatar
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    Superman elseworld stories are great. But they aren't really a lot of fun. Even with elseworld stories, writers AND fans want to pigeonhole him. We'll never get stuff like Gotham by Gaslight, Spider-Man Noir, Old Man Logan (and no it's not Kingdom Come). Notice how not even the sky is the limit with the stories you can tell with other superheroes. Give me a punk-inspired Superman universe, tokusatsu Superman, lovecraftian Superman, etc.

    Personally I don't think Superman is boring but everyone else goes out of their way to make him boring.

  7. #3532
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I believe each character in the family should embody a different archetype and theme.

    Donna was always the insecure one that could rise above her fears. And she also started out with the impossible tales from Kanigher. To me the John Byrne idea that Donna was artificially created and lived through all the unhappiness a women could experience in various lives is a cool update of both those themes from the 50s, and again, shows something that Diana should never be but that is important none the less for this theme of femininity and power.

    Cassie embodies this idea that Diana is bringing about a new type of woman, and that's why Cassie should be the example of an ordinary girl in a world post Wonder Woman, a girl that seeks adventure and power and doesn't have to think about what does it mean to be a strong woman, she can just live it out naturally.

    And I don't see what's confusing about my proposition, Donna is the "portrait of Dorian Gray" for Diana. A game between gods led to the creation of Donna Troy so she would live out all the unhappiness that Diana never experienced. She was cursed by time itself. Eventually an epic story about Diana finding out about this and trying to save Donna from the curse of time. Donna has the memories of Diana's happy childhood in Paradise Island, even though she herself never experienced it.
    I've heard a lot of terrible ideas for fixing Donna Troy but this one is going to hard to top. "Donna Troy, your only purpose in existence is to suffer."

    Donna's origin doesn't need to be reinvented whole cloth nor does every interesting plot idea needs to be jam packed into her origin. Donna having a simple origin story does not mean she can't meet Rhea, be empowered by the Titans, cursed by Dark Angel or be a multiverse adventurer at some point in her journey. Both Donna and Cassie serve the idea of Diana changing and inspiring the world with 'any woman can be a Wonder Woman'; Donna by being adopted and empowered by the Amazons and Cassie after seeing Diana and wanting to emulate her.

  8. #3533
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I believe each character in the family should embody a different archetype and theme.

    Donna was always the insecure one that could rise above her fears. And she also started out with the impossible tales from Kanigher. To me the John Byrne idea that Donna was artificially created and lived through all the unhappiness a women could experience in various lives is a cool update of both those themes from the 50s, and again, shows something that Diana should never be but that is important none the less for this theme of femininity and power.

    Cassie embodies this idea that Diana is bringing about a new type of woman, and that's why Cassie should be the example of an ordinary girl in a world post Wonder Woman, a girl that seeks adventure and power and doesn't have to think about what does it mean to be a strong woman, she can just live it out naturally.

    And I don't see what's confusing about my proposition, Donna is the "portrait of Dorian Gray" for Diana. A game between gods led to the creation of Donna Troy so she would live out all the unhappiness that Diana never experienced. She was cursed by time itself. Eventually an epic story about Diana finding out about this and trying to save Donna from the curse of time. Donna has the memories of Diana's happy childhood in Paradise Island, even though she herself never experienced it.
    Quote Originally Posted by atomicskull View Post
    Superman elseworld stories are great. But they aren't really a lot of fun. Even with elseworld stories, writers AND fans want to pigeonhole him. We'll never get stuff like Gotham by Gaslight, Spider-Man Noir, Old Man Logan (and no it's not Kingdom Come). Notice how not even the sky is the limit with the stories you can tell with other superheroes. Give me a punk-inspired Superman universe, tokusatsu Superman, lovecraftian Superman, etc.

    Personally I don't think Superman is boring but everyone else goes out of their way to make him boring.
    Great, now I want to see 'Old Man Superman' and 'Superman Noir' Elseworlds.

  9. #3534
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Great, now I want to see 'Old Man Superman' and 'Superman Noir' Elseworlds.



  10. #3535
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post


    "i AM A MAAAN!"

  11. #3536
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post


    You put that shit back where you found it and go to your room.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  12. #3537
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I've heard a lot of terrible ideas for fixing Donna Troy but this one is going to hard to top. "Donna Troy, your only purpose in existence is to suffer."
    I still think it's a cool origin with thematic value, but it's okay for you not to.

    And ai maintain that adopted by the amazons after a disaster is the weakest origin by far and doesn't make her appealing at all.

  13. #3538
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I still think it's a cool origin with thematic value, but it's okay for you not to.

    And ai maintain that adopted by the amazons after a disaster is the weakest origin by far and doesn't make her appealing at all.
    Speak for yourself, bro. Wolfman's original origin for her is still the most successful and well received iteration. Nobody wants another overly convoluted mess or another 'new NEW origin but it'll stick this time I promise' origin for her.

    Once again, you're confusing your tastes and preferences with an objective fact.

  14. #3539
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Let's put it this way, if someone has never read anything with Donna Troy, that origin won't help in creating interest.

  15. #3540
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Based on the themes of the book, Donna being a 'Portrait of Dorian Grey' for Diana might be worst than her having an inconsistent past.
    What makes you say that?

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